# Fur bearer license for night?



## Woodstock

I hope you got a badge number and that works for you.

It's $15 bucks and will prevent a hassle.


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## NovemberWhitetailz

Woodstock said:


> I hope you got a badge number and that works for you.
> 
> It's $15 bucks and will prevent a hassle.


Ya, he's one of my good friends. But thanks!


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## Woodstock

HUBBHUNTER2 said:


> Ya, he's one of my good friends. But thanks!


He should look that up in the law, I don't have the recent one. It may've changed recently but I haven't heard anything about it. 

Another thing people should know is that you cannot legally buy an untanned pelt unless you have a furbuyer's license. After it's tanned, it's okay.


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## doggk9

A taxidermist can handle it, tan it, mount it but a fur buyer can not.


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## Woodstock

doggk9 said:


> A taxidermist can handle it, tan it, mount it but a fur buyer can not.


That's where I'm not sure about the letter of the law.
The taxidermist takes in the animal, records the data and fleshes/dries the hide.
He then has to send it out to a place to get it tanned.

This is where things change because once it crosses state lines, it becomes Federal Jurisdiction (reference The Lacy Act).

I don't know if the taxidermist is required to put the client's information on it or not. Or, if they just bypass the hassle and put it under their tag even though it isn't the correct thing to do.

When I only hunted, I found out about all this **** and decided that $15 was a very small price to pay for a little extra insurance.


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## Schwim

koolaid said:


> Yeah, it's a bit confusing. I've been trying to figure out the laws regarding hunting coyote from a tree stand at night(with a bow), so I've been coming through that PDF for a few days.
> 
> The way I've interpreted those two notes is that a fur bearers license does allow you to hunt coyote, but you don't necessarily need it. Which is why it's telling you to check footnote 3 on page 6. I could be wrong, though.
> 
> Buying one sounds like the safest option, plus it allows you to take a fox if you happen to see one.


To me it looks like a stand or platform is only huntable for yotes from a half hour before sunrise till a half hour after sunset with any weapon. Was this your conclusion as well?


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## Fishman95

koolaid said:


> Yeah, it's a bit confusing. I've been trying to figure out the laws regarding hunting coyote from a tree stand at night(with a bow), so I've been coming through that PDF for a few days.
> 
> The way I've interpreted those two notes is that a fur bearers license does allow you to hunt coyote, but you don't necessarily need it. Which is why it's telling you to check footnote 3 on page 6. I could be wrong, though.
> 
> Buying one sounds like the safest option, plus it allows you to take a fox if you happen to see one.


The way it's written, it seems like you can bow hunt from a stand at night and they want firearm coyote hunters using them only during the day.


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## FMann

The "base" license number and a fur harvester number would be the same. You can hunt, sell or send out to be tanned a coyote with out a fur harvester license. You can not do these things with a fox, raccoon or bobcat or any other furbearing animal with out a fur harvesters license however.

Like has been poster already tho why would you not spend the extra $15 for the fur harvester license?


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## DirtySteve

Woodstock said:


> Furbearer's license is for fur bearers, not just trapping. Hence the name.
> 
> To sell a hide, the license is required.
> 
> If you posses a hide, untanned, you would have to convince the LEOs that you didn't shoot it in a trap.
> 
> Correction, Fur harvester is the name of the license



You can sell a coyote hide without a fur harvester license. The buyer, tannery, or taxidermist asks for your valid license not a fur harvester license. You just give them the number on your base license and you are covered......because you legally harvested the animal with a base license. 

As far as proving to an leo that you didn't shoot it in a trap I think you have that backwards. The leo has to prove that you shot it in a trap if he wants to write you a ticket. If you legally harvested an animal and you are questioned you only need to tell the truth. The leo has to have proof you didn't legally harvest.

If you shoot a fox you have to have a fur harvester.....the laws says so.


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## Woodstock

DirtySteve said:


> You can sell a coyote hide without a fur harvester license. The buyer, tannery, or taxidermist asks for your valid license not a fur harvester license. You just give them the number on your base license and you are covered......because you legally harvested the animal with a base license.
> 
> As far as proving to an leo that you didn't shoot it in a trap I think you have that backwards. The leo has to prove that you shot it in a trap if he wants to write you a ticket. If you legally harvested an animal and you are questioned you only need to tell the truth. The leo has to have proof you didn't legally harvest.
> 
> If you shoot a fox you have to have a fur harvester.....the laws says so.


This is the latest rules for the MTPCA that I could find, 5 years ago:

"Here are the updated rules for our fur sales.
MTPCA Fur Auction Rules

Eds. Note: Meanings for most of the capitalized words can be found in the "Definitions" portion of this page.

1. You must be a current member of the MTPCA and possess a valid Fur Harvester License or if from out of state your state assoc. or the NTA and possess a valid Fur Harvester License."


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## dead short

To answer the original question... You are allowed to coyote hunt at night with only a base license. If a fox comes to the call you are not allowed to take it without a fur harvester license. 

324.43523a Base license; hunting fur-bearing animals; fee; hours void; limited nonresident small game license.

Sec. 43523a.
(4) A base license is void between the hours of 1/2 hour after sunset and 1/2 hour before sunrise with the exception of coyote hunting.


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## DirtySteve

Woodstock said:


> This is the latest rules for the MTPCA that I could find, 5 years ago:
> 
> "Here are the updated rules for our fur sales.
> MTPCA Fur Auction Rules
> 
> Eds. Note: Meanings for most of the capitalized words can be found in the "Definitions" portion of this page.
> 
> 1. You must be a current member of the MTPCA and possess a valid Fur Harvester License or if from out of state your state assoc. or the NTA and possess a valid Fur Harvester License."



Selling at the mtpca fur auction and selling to a fur buyer or an nafa auction etc are two totally different things. Mtpca makes you have both because it is their rule not the states. 

Telling me I can't sell a legally harvested coyote hide is like telling me I can't sell a legally harvested deer hide. You have to have fur harvester license to sell any animal that requires you to harvest it.

Form michigan.gov chapter 4 possession, importation and sale.....


4.3 Buying and selling.
Sec. 4.3 A person may buy, offer to buy, sell, offer to sell, or exchange for anything of value animals or parts of 
animals only as provided in this section: 
(1) The fur, hide, pelt, plumage, or skin of game, lawfully taken during the open season or raised under the 
authority of a permit to hold wildlife in captivity, may be sold or offered for sale by the person licensed to take 
the game or the person permitted to hold wildlife in captivity. 
(2) The carcass and parts thereof, of fur-bearing animals lawfully taken during their open season or 
lawfully imported from another state, territory, or country, may be bought or sold. 
(3) The antlers of deer, elk, and moose lawfully taken by a hunter or shed by the animal may be bought or 
sold. The skull of black bear lawfully taken may be bought or sold. The teeth, claws, flesh, bones, or internal 
organs of game, other than those species listed in subsection (2), shall not be bought or sold


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## koolaid

Schwim said:


> To me it looks like a stand or platform is only huntable for yotes from a half hour before sunrise till a half hour after sunset with any weapon. Was this your conclusion as well?


I'm leaning more in the direction that hunting from a tree stand at night with a bow is legal. The half hour before/after sunrise/sunset seems to apply to firearms. Although, I could be wrong. I've left the local CO two voicemail asking for clarification, but I haven't heard back from them yet. 

For now I'm going to play it safe and avoid the tree stand at night, just in case.


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## fr3db3ar

Just saying. MTPCA rules are not the law. It can certainly make it more confusing.


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## DirtySteve

fr3db3ar said:


> Just saying. MTPCA rules are not the law. It can certainly make it more confusing.


I am sure the mtpca rule was established before you could hunt coyotes with just a base license. There was a time when you needed a fur harvester license to hunt coyotes. So back then you would be able to sell anything without having a fur harvester license because that would mean the animal wasn't legally harvested if you didnt have one. I would bet money that 90% or more of the people selling at a mtpca auction is a trapper or a predator hunter that also shoots fox and needs to have the license to be legal....so no need to change their rule. It also promotes license sales and the sport in general so it is a good rule in my opinion.


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## prodriguezsas

can someone tell me what firearm I can legally hunt coyote with at night (SW MI)? I'm looking to setup a nightvision rig.


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## koolaid

prodriguezsas said:


> can someone tell me what firearm I can legally hunt coyote with at night (SW MI)? I'm looking to setup a nightvision rig.


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/hunting_and_trapping_digest_461177_7.pdf

"A licensed individual may travel afoot with only a bow and arrow, crossbow, a rimfire firearm .22 caliber or smaller, or shotgun with loads other than buckshot, slug, or cut shell."

Check page 48 in that pdf, you'll find the nighttime regulations there. Of course there may be other restrictions based on the area you plan to hunt.


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## dead short

No treestands after the close of "normal" shouting hours. Read the information after the last bullet. 

Raised Platforms and Tree StandsThe following persons may hunt from a raised platform or tree stand:• All bow and crossbow hunters.• Bear, deer, and elk hunters when using a firearm.• Small game (except migratory bird) hunters using a shotgun only.• Fox and coyote hunters from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset.


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## Fishman95

dead short said:


> No treestands after the close of "normal" shouting hours. Read the information after the last bullet.
> 
> Raised Platforms and Tree StandsThe following persons may hunt from a raised platform or tree stand:• All bow and crossbow hunters.• Bear, deer, and elk hunters when using a firearm.• Small game (except migratory bird) hunters using a shotgun only.• Fox and coyote hunters from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset.


It doesn't say you can't use them at night, it just says all coyote hunters may use them during the day. This doesn't grant you permission to bowhunt at night from a stand, but it also doesn't say you can't. The part that says "all bow hunters" means that you can coyote hunt at night with a bow from a tree. 

You only need to fall into one of those categories to legally hunt from a tree. A coyote hunt at night with a bow fans into only the first category.
Typically the law doesn't tell you what you can do, just what you can't. If it doesn't say you cant, you can.


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## Schwim

prodriguezsas said:


> can someone tell me what firearm I can legally hunt coyote with at night (SW MI)? I'm looking to setup a nightvision rig.


17 WSM is probably the best bet under the current law. Savage, Ruger, Franklin Armory, Volquartsen and Winchester are making rifles in that caliber.


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## koolaid

Fishman95 said:


> It doesn't say you can't use them at night, it just says all coyote hunters may use them during the day. This doesn't grant you permission to bowhunt at night from a stand, but it also doesn't say you can't. The part that says "all bow hunters" means that you can coyote hunt at night with a bow from a tree.
> 
> You only need to fall into one of those categories to legally hunt from a tree. A coyote hunt at night with a bow fans into only the first category.
> Typically the law doesn't tell you what you can do, just what you can't. If it doesn't say you cant, you can.


Yeah, this is what I took away from it I'd like clarification from the dnr, but I'must wondering if I'll get a different answer from everyone I ask.


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## fr3db3ar

Fishman95 said:


> It doesn't say you can't use them at night, it just says all coyote hunters may use them during the day. This doesn't grant you permission to bowhunt at night from a stand, but it also doesn't say you can't. The part that says "all bow hunters" means that you can coyote hunt at night with a bow from a tree.
> 
> You only need to fall into one of those categories to legally hunt from a tree. A coyote hunt at night with a bow fans into only the first category.
> Typically the law doesn't tell you what you can do, just what you can't. If it doesn't say you cant, you can.


Try that and let me know how it works. It specifies 1/2 before and 1/2 after daylight. That's specific enough for me to mean not during the night.


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## Honkkilla59

koolaid said:


> Yeah, this is what I took away from it I'd like clarification from the dnr, but I'must wondering if I'll get a different answer from everyone I ask.


I'm not sure if your aware but Dead short is a CO and has given you great advice.
I trust he knows the law and it's interpretation unlike many of the average sportsman on this site.


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## tsb3

Exactly!!


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## dead short

Maybe this will help you understand better.... 

Under the Wildlife Conservation Order, it is illegal to use a elevated platform at any time....

2.1 Taking of animals; prohibited methods, devices, and weapons; exceptions.

Sec. 2.1 Unless otherwise specified in this order, a person shall not do any of the following: 
(1) Make use of a pit, pitfall, deadfall, scaffold, raised platform, tree, cage, snare, trap, net, baited hook, or similar device, or a drug, poison, anti-coagulant, smoke, gas, explosive, weasel, ferret, fitchew, arbalest, spear, or mechanical device, for the purpose of taking an animal or driving an animal out of their hole or home. For the purpose of this order, a mechanical device shall not be construed to mean a firearm, crossbow, slingshot, or bow and arrow. When used in this order, “raised platform” means a horizontal surface constructed or manufactured by a person that increases the field of vision of a person using the horizontal surface beyond the field of vision that would normally be attained by that person standing on the ground.

Except when....

2.8 Hunt with bow and arrow from scaffold, raised platform, or tree allowed; taking certain species with a firearm from scaffold, raised platform or tree allowed; use of scaffold, platform, ladder, steps or certain other devices in taking an animal on publicly owned lands, exception.

Sec. 2.8 An individual may hunt with a crossbow or a bow and arrow from a scaffold, raised platform, or tree. An individual taking deer, elk, or bear with a firearm may use a scaffold, raised platform, or tree pursuant to all other hunting regulations. An individual taking fox or coyote with a firearm one-half hour before sunrise to one- half hour after sunset may use a scaffold, raised platform, or tree, pursuant to all other hunting regulations. An individual taking small game that are not migratory game birds with a shotgun may use a scaffold, raised platform, or tree pursuant to all other hunting regulations.


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## Fishman95

Exactly. A firearm coyote Hunter can only use a tree stand during the day but anyone hunting with a bow may. Therefore, a nighttime coyote bowhunter may use a tree stand


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## Schwim

Fishman95 said:


> Exactly. A firearm coyote Hunter can only use a tree stand during the day but anyone hunting with a bow may. Therefore, a nighttime coyote bowhunter may use a tree stand


I agree. The confusion comes from the fact that the word "firearm" is omitted from the digest version of the rules.


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## koolaid

Honkkilla59 said:


> I'm not sure if your aware but Dead short is a CO and has given you great advice.
> I trust he knows the law and it's interpretation unlike many of the average sportsman on this site.


I did not know that! Thank you for the clarification, and thank you dead short for the information !


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## dead short

So after talking with a few people in Lansing recently, you can hunt with a bow after hours for fox/coyote from a platform. They are going to look into the mixed information and see which way indeed they want the WCO to read....to allow it or not. If it continues, the hunting guide will be corrected to read appropriately.


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## koolaid

dead short said:


> recently, you can hunt with a bow after hours for fox/coyote from a platform. They are going to look into the mixed information and see which way indeed they want the WCO to read....to allow it or not. If it continues, the hunting


Awesome, thanks for looking in to it! I'll make sure to keep an eye out for the change!


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## wolverines

dead short said:


> So after talking with a few people in Lansing recently, you can hunt with a bow after hours for fox/coyote from a platform. They are going to look into the mixed information and see which way indeed they want the WCO to read....to allow it or not. If it continues, the hunting guide will be corrected to read appropriately.


Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but can you please explain this from the guide:

1Raccoons and coyotes may be taken year-round, using otherwise lawful hunting or trapping 
methods, on private property and with landowner permission when doing or about to do
damage. A license or written permit is not needed.

Calling is a lawful hunting method, but how can you say the coyote is doing or about to do damage if you called it in? I could say any coyote I see is about to do damage. I think I understand what this is intended for, but is so poorly worded that we should be able to hunt coyotes year-round. I can see a trap being set on a track going into a chicken coop and now you've stopped the coyote from doing any more damage. But what if you set the trap away from the coop on a trail, or you found the den site, can you set a trap there? What if you bait or sent the trap site? All legal methods, but aren't you trying to lure it in to your trap now? Where do you draw the line? What constitutes damage? Or better yet, about to do damage? 

I could go on and on with different ways one could decipher the meaning of this. I think we've put way too many regulations on a predator/varmint that needs to be kept in check. Why provide so much protection for an animal that the vast majority of people want to see reduced?


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## dead short

wolverines said:


> Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but can you please explain this from the guide:
> 
> 1Raccoons and coyotes may be taken year-round, using otherwise lawful hunting or trapping
> methods, on private property and with landowner permission when doing or about to do
> damage. A license or written permit is not needed.
> 
> Calling is a lawful hunting method, but how can you say the coyote is doing or about to do damage if you called it in? I could say any coyote I see is about to do damage. I think I understand what this is intended for, but is so poorly worded that we should be able to hunt coyotes year-round. I can see a trap being set on a track going into a chicken coop and now you've stopped the coyote from doing any more damage. But what if you set the trap away from the coop on a trail, or you found the den site, can you set a trap there? What if you bait or sent the trap site? All legal methods, but aren't you trying to lure it in to your trap now? Where do you draw the line? What constitutes damage? Or better yet, about to do damage?
> 
> I could go on and on with different ways one could decipher the meaning of this. I think we've put way too many regulations on a predator/varmint that needs to be kept in check. Why provide so much protection for an animal that the vast majority of people want to see reduced?


This could very likely be clarified/simplified over the next few NRC meetings.


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## wolverines

dead short said:


> This could very likely be clarified/simplified over the next few NRC meetings.


That would be great! Are we going to be happy afterwards?


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## fr3db3ar

I hope so, they wish to open the season year round and extend the time frame where lights can be used at night.


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## Luv2hunteup

Changes are proposed and are on the 3/10/16 NRC meeting agenda. See WCO amendment 4 of 2016. These changes will probably be enacted at the April meeting.


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## doggk9

Anyone who wants to be involved come on out to the double tree in Holland on 3/10. While you're there help us speak up for the centerfire after dark movement.


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## wolverines

Anyone else notice the new hunting guides are for the next 2 years? Makes me think nothings going to change anytime soon. Hope I'm wrong, but why put out a 2 year guide if changes are in the works? 
Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I'm a realist. Don't get me wrong, I want these changes as much as the next guy, just not holding my breath...


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## fr3db3ar

Are suppressors permitted in the new guide? That's already changed. I'm fairly confident that this season predators will go year round.


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## wolverines

fr3db3ar said:


> Are suppressors permitted in the new guide? That's already changed. I'm fairly confident that this season predators will go year round.


I haven't looked. 
Hope you're right...


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## dead short

Luv2hunteup said:


> Changes are proposed and are on the 3/10/16 NRC meeting agenda. See WCO amendment 4 of 2016. These changes will probably be enacted at the April meeting.





wolverines said:


> That would be great! Are we going to be happy afterwards?


This is what I was referring to.


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## doggk9

wolverines said:


> Anyone else notice the new hunting guides are for the next 2 years? Makes me think nothings going to change anytime soon. Hope I'm wrong, but why put out a 2 year guide if changes are in the works?
> Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I'm a realist. Don't get me wrong, I want these changes as much as the next guy, just not holding my breath...


 Come to a meeting and see for yourself.


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## Seaarkshooter

wolverines said:


> Anyone else notice the new hunting guides are for the next 2 years? Makes me think nothings going to change anytime soon. Hope I'm wrong, but why put out a 2 year guide if changes are in the works?
> Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I'm a realist. Don't get me wrong, I want these changes as much as the next guy, just not holding my breath...


We are in a proposed furbearer reg. change period. The hunting and trapping guide says that as a result of the last two years. If any change happens this year before August, they go into the new trapping guide for an additional two years. That's how it works.


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