# gas money/rider fee for fishing



## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

It is common and customary practice nationwide in draw bass tournaments for the non-boater to give the boater a 'rider' fee at the end of the tournament day. The amount is commonly $20. It is to help cover the boater's higher costs for providing the boat, boat gas and oil that both anglers fish from in that day's tournament.

Some tournaments have the rider (non-boater) fee in their rules, some mention a fairness in considering helping the boater cover his higher costs for the tournament day, and some are purely verbal and understood as common practice.

Some non-boaters pay the standard amount, some pay more and some don't pay. In most cases, it is voluntary rule-wise, just many anglers do it.

Some anglers think this fee is illegal in Michigan. Is it? Sometimes I, as a boater, will draw friends I fish with outside of the tournament and sometimes I draw strangers. We have all paid entry fees into the tournament.

Is it any different from when me and my friend just go fishing and we use my boat so he gives me $20 towards boat gas?


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

I don't think there is an issue of legality here. However, I am amazed that anyone would have a problem with paying $20. Its a pittance compared to the captains'/boat owners' out of pocket costs. At today's prices, $20 might pay for enough gas for a couple trips around the harbor, but most tournament fishermen cover miles of water in an average day. Anyone who quibbles about $20 for the opportunity to tournament fish on someone else's boat should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

I see no problem either, if it's part of the rules that a non boater has to pay the captain, either he pays or stays on shore. If it's voulentary, and they don't pay, blackball the schmuck. $20.00 for the use of a $30,000+ boat for a day? Won't even cover 1/4 the fuel, much less other expenses. I would want it to be a LOT more, particularly when being partnered with a stranger.........


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## Steve (Jan 15, 2000)

Seems pretty cheap to me.


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## malainse (Sep 2, 2002)

If some do not pay(L-cheapo) why not just change the rules/ fee's. The boater pays $20 less then the rider. That way the boater will get the common $20 and if the rider wants to kick in more they can........

If can not do this I agree with ESOX, blackball the guy that does not pay......


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## trout (Jan 17, 2000)

If you accept any money for a car ride ,boat or plane you are accepting liability for the safety of the rider.
I have a close friend who was sued and lost over 200K because his daughter took gas money and got into an accident.


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## kingfisher 11 (Jan 26, 2000)

Trout I can give you another story.

I worked with a guy in which his wife was killed in a car accident along with another lady. His wife always gave the same lady a ride to work without asking for gas money.

During the funeral for this guys wife, he was served papers for a lawsuit. He lost the case because the rider had gave his wife a set of dishes as good jesture for giving her a ride. He lost the case because they considered that payment. Even though those dishes were given to her a month before the accident.


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

I don't believe that the absence of money (or goods) changing hands prevents a lawsuit. In this country's lawsuit happy society any deep pockets are a target.


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## Jason Adam (Jun 27, 2001)

This issue has been beat to death on several other boards and this one i believe in the past. Some people, especially charter boat captains, will be quick to tell you that if you accept money, gas, lunch, anything, in exchange for a fishing trip, that you are chartering, and therefore commiting a crime if you are unlicensed. I personally NEVER tell anyone, or even ask anyone for money to go out fishing. I'm gonna suck down $100 in gas a weekend regardless, and I'd rather have some friends out there with me. If I stop at the gas station and I go to pay and my buddy already paid, I'll thank him and we'll go fishin. If they leave and there's a twenty or two in my hat, so be it. Many of the people that fish on my boat are boat owners themselves. Most of us kinda have a unwritten rule that we just go back and fourth between boats and everything works out. If I fish a weekend in another port with someone, we'll usually split Tow Gas adn I'll pick up the slip or dinner or whatever. Back to the subject at hand though, I think if you REQUEST payment, you're opening a can of worms. If you get $20 for gas or to cover "lost tackle" or whatever unsolicited, I'm sure your safe. My $.02


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Technically if you pay money, don't care if it's $10 or $100, it's illegal. Then you are chartering.


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

What regulation/law is this covered in? I'd like to read it and pass it on to some people on another board that are interested in this topic as it applies to our rider fee and/or friends splitting gas expense. Thanks.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

For your Reading pleasure.

http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=28103101&Dpt=NR&RngHigh=

http://www.michiganlegislature.org/...I-2-3-CHARTER-AND-LIVERY-BOATS-445&highlight=

324.44501 Definitions. 
(b) Carrying passengers for hire or carry passengers for hire means the transporting of any person on a vessel for consideration regardless of whether the consideration is directly or indirectly paid to the owner of the vessel, the owner's agent, the operator of the vessel, or any other person who holds any interest in the vessel.


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

Thank you


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## Fishfoote (Jan 2, 2001)

I was wondering when I'd scroll down to someone bringing up the chartering issue - that's what I thought the original post was asking, though the liability issue goes hand-in-hand - probably worse if you're not a licensed captain. I really hope congress passes this lawsuit limit bill that Bush wants.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Boehr, please don't feel offended or try and justify the law but I have a problem with this.
The first consideration is, that there is a distinct difference between (at least in my mind) sharing costs and actual charter fees. There is alot of difference between a $600 charter and a $20 bill to share in gas. If I could get a chartrer trip for $20 bucks I'd go daily.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I understand but I don't think the charterboat captains will.


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## ESOX (Nov 20, 2000)

OK that does it. From now on, nobody gives me gas money for the boat. I will, however be charging for the gas it took me to drive the truck to the ramp.......alone.


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## WALLEYE MIKE (Jan 7, 2001)

Just take the 20 bucks and keep your mouth shut. I always say "Its not illegal til you get caught". LOL


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## Patriot (Jan 24, 2001)

As usual, you get what you pay for. Licensed charter boats and Licensed captains have to jump through a bunch of hoops financial and legal. That is to insure you get a SAFE trip on a reliable INSURED boat. To protect their interests and the public's safety there is a charter boat act. When you board a LICENSED charter boat, you can be assured that it has gone through a Dry Hull inspection in the last 5 years, is insured, has a licensed, seasoned Captain and has recently passed a Dockside inspection. The law was not created to bone the little man....only to protect the resource enjoying general public. Every year people are ticketed for illegal charters by undercover operations. To set a dollar amount cut off between legal and illegal chartering would be a disaster to enforce.


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

I understand we need regulation for the charterboat industry. There are also many 'small' boat guides too.

The regulation appears pretty tight although some doesn't apply to small boat guides. I've already talked to Lansing Law Division about that and there are some things being done to deal fairly with the small boats.

I was curious about 2 things really: how strict is a CO normally going to enforce this and how tight was the regulation written, especially regarding definitions. I think that has been answered.

I have had a couple COs tell me they could ticket me if they see my friend give me $20 after a day of fishing in my boat, but I can't see the likelihood that this would happen. I also can't see the MDNR swinging down on tournaments to investigate the 'rider fee.' I don't see what it would gain anyone.

Neither is truly an attempt to operate in a 'carrying passengers for hire' mode. I'm not taking my friend fishing for consideration. We go fishing together all the time. Sometimes in his boat, sometimes in mine. Often we use the alternate boat method instead of sharing gas money, but not all my regular fishing partners have a boat or a boat capable of running around on the big lakes, so we take mine.

Tournaments are obviously tournaments. Their purpose is clearly defined and is not to transport a person or person(s) for consideration. Both parties are paying an entry fee of some kind to an entity who's purpose is to run the tournament on shore, not take people out in a boat. Many tournaments are 'team' events where you fish with your regular fishing partner each time, not a stranger.

I have a hard time believing a CO would give me a ticket in either case. Now, if I show up every weekend with a different angler, and they are all giving me $50 or a $100 just to go fishing that day, that would be another story. I wouldn't be making a profit though, so I think realistically (and from what I've seen) these kinds of guys rarely continue doing this for very long. If they actually start advertising their service, well that's an easy one to decide.

You can't make any money at that unless you charge a substantial fee and you can't continue doing it for very long unless you're a decent person who gets return customers and/or referrals. I have to believe if you meet the above, you're probably going to go through the official process and be legitimate - at least in the small boat market.

I have never liked regulations that can leave so much up to a judgment call by another person, but as long as it isn't being abused and their are unscrupulous persons out there who make it necessary to have such a reg, it seems the best thing to do is be aware of it - know it clearly - and if ever questioned by a CO, just be honest and decent.


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## Patriot (Jan 24, 2001)

I have been involved with the charter industry on the enforcement end since the begining of salmon in Lake Michigan. When the fishery began, every body who owned something that floated was an expert. (Remember the drownings in 67?)Many started to pay for their fun by excepting money "Just to fish". The influx of Charter boats brought out the worst in equipment. Ridgid inspection and enforcement along with self policing of illegal charters cleaned up the fleet to what it is today. It goes without saying that the buddies who split the gas, launch fees etc. are not the targets of undercover operations and the law was not intended to make them targets. In every port there are a few who operate above and beyond that level and are targets.Sometimes we worry too much about the what MIGHT happen and what Might be done by the local C.O. who generally has a creel full of bigger fish to fry.......Retired and loving it. Remember our Troops.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Patriot, I agree.

Kimmel, I especially agree with the specific term "profit". Is $20 actually payment for services that will yield a profit? In no time at all, you'd have a deficit as large as our government's


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## Patriot (Jan 24, 2001)

Ask a Legal question and you will get a legal answer. No room for common sense. Ask a practical question and you will get a practical answer.


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## FREEPOP (Apr 11, 2002)

Yes, I didn't put much thought into it. When an LEO answers a question he must state the law, and not the "shades" of it. Come on 5:00, I'm bored and I need to go home!


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

There is a concept in law called the 'reasonable man rule'. It revolves around what a reasonable person would think of a situation. The splitting of gas money between friends would never pass the reasonable man's test of being considered a charter. As to a CO issuing a ticket to someone because he sees him receive a 20 dollar bill at the end of a day of fishing, I doubt that it would ever happen.


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## Patriot (Jan 24, 2001)

Actually the terminology would be "Reasonable Doubt". The basic test used in a court of law.
Common sense worked well for me for 30 years........


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

I hope the regulation is enforced in a reasonable manner. It seems like it is since I don't hear of guys getting tickets for giving their buddy gas money. I was asked on another board frequented by tournament anglers specifically about our rider fee.

I felt boehr would be a helpful person to ask since he has made himself available. I definitely don't want to put him on the spot. I'd call Lansing again if I wanted to split hairs. I was interested in the actual language used to enforce and the technicality of it.

I won't ask him or any other CO if they would ticket someone for giving his buddy or fellow tournament angler $20 towards gas. I would hope the answer would be no, but I understand someone who enforces laws might not want to respond to such a question in general terms. Thanks for everyone's input.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

Too many people claiming to be someone with experience in certain areas and remaining anonymous in their profile for me.


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## Patriot (Jan 24, 2001)

You do an excellent job on this forum Ray. I know it is over and above your regular duties. I don't think you need a bunch of retired C.O.s second guessing your answers. That is why some don't list everything in their profile. Too bad it did'nt exist between 66 and 96 when I was a C.O. I spent my last 27 years in Grand Haven. Only hope my experience can help clear up some misconceptions.


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## answerguy8 (Oct 15, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Patriot _
> *Actually the terminology would be "Reasonable Doubt". The basic test used in a court of law.
> Common sense worked well for me for 30 years........ *


'Reasonable doubt' and 'reasonable man' are two different legal concepts. Now 'common sense'; there's a concept we could all use more of.


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

boehr,
It appears to me that you are pretty good about saying what you want and not what you don't. Regardless, what you're doing is important and valuable for many reasons.

I expect that anytime I ask you for something you don't want to give for whatever reason, you won't do so and I will respect that. I may ask things anyway. Whether I agree or like the information you offer or not doesn't change that I respect and appreciate what you do.

I still get asked for my opinion often by tournament anglers because of my active history having been the Michigan BASS Chapter Federation Environmental Director for 10 years (1986 - 1996). Everything about this is on my website and I stay active in outdoor issues. It's really helpful to get whatever information and/or opinions you're willing to provide back to my friends and fellow anglers. Thanks.


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## captdenny (Jan 24, 2003)

guys, Boehr is 100% on this item. Most believe that the gesture of giving a few bucks for sharing the adventure is only fair (and I support that thought), it however is against the law to receive any form of payment for service rendered without being licensed to do so. Several writers have published many articles on the very subject (one was published last month).


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

Where was the article published in?


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## twodogsphil (Apr 16, 2002)

The above titled article written by Mike Schoonveld was printed in the March 7, 2003 edition of Michigan Outdoor News.


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

My last question at this time on this topic for now boehr: If I were to offer for example, a day fishing with me in my boat for 2 on Lake St. Clair to a charity raffle to whoever the highest bidder was, would that also be a technical violation? I would take them fishing at my own personal expense (I go over there a lot anyway). I am not a licensed guide. I fish with my family, friends and in tournaments.

If it is a violation, have you ever heard of the MDNR going after someone who has offered a fishing trip in this manner? Thanks.


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## boehr (Jan 31, 2000)

I can appreciate you guys wanting me to answer "what if's". There are a lot of "what if's" I would love to answer but I'm not going to. It's not in the best interest of all the people that might read these forums and read my "what if" answer, then make further assumptions and get caught doing something wrong then want to blame me for them getting into trouble. Ain't going to happen folks.

That being said, no I have never heard of someone getting arrested for illegal charter in the situation you described above djkimmel but, that in no way doesn't mean it hasn't happened. That's as close to "what if", I'm going to answer. Sorry folks.


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## djkimmel (Aug 22, 2002)

I was thinking of helping out a charity by offering to take people on a fun fishing day, but it occurred to me that it might be technically illegal by the language of the regulation if I'm not actually a licensed guide/charter/pilot/etc. I'd like to offer, but not if it could get me and/or the charity in trouble. The odds might be low that I'd be ticketed for this type of activity, but I prefer not taking chances at all when someone who understands the regulations (boehr) says it could be a violation. I'll just hold off or figure out another way to help.

I don't mean these to be what if questions as far as would I get ticketed, just does it technically create a violation in consideration of the present regulations. I like to make informed decisions before I act and I don't want to misinform people I know either.

I do think a 'boehr says I'm exempt from the regulation' certificate is an awesome idea, but I can see why you'd prefer not to offer. There aren't too many guarantees out there, but if I decide I need one in these kinds of issues, I'll have to call someone in Lansing and take what I can get.


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## FishTales (Feb 13, 2002)

In all reality it sounds like tournament fishing is in direct violation of the law if the ametuer has to pay a fee to participate, he would actually be paying to ride on the boat with the pro.

Another case to consider, whenever you go fishing with your buddy on his boat and your happen to share one of your pops or a sandwich, this is considered another form of payment.

I guess a lot of this is common sense, there is obviously a big difference between going fishing with your buddy and taking people out for hire.

It seems like almost everyone i know that goes fishing with a buddy has been in violation, and i have been fishing over 50 years, never seen anyone cited for this type of activity.


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