# Kitchen tile project



## BUGBOAT (Oct 25, 2005)

I am going to install 13*13 porcelain tiles in my kitchen. From what I understand the subfloor prep is the most important part of the project. Currently I have vinyl flooring over 1/4 plywood over 3/4 OSB tongue and groove. I will be using 1/4 inch backer board under the tile. My question is, do I need to remove the 1/4 inch plywood after taking out the vinyl, or can I put the backer board right over the plywood? Right now I havn't taken the vinyl up and don't know how the plywood is attached to the OSB subfloor. I'm sure there are some good tile guys that can tell me what they would do. I dont want to cut corners and want the job to last "forever". 

Eric


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## cityboy2977 (Jul 27, 2009)

no, you dont need to rip up the 1/4 ply. but you do need to screw it down
thoroughly. probably stapled down. 
5/8 drywall screws every 8" apart should do. just stay 2" off your edges, because you will be on top of your first screw with your second from the backer board.
and if you have any high spots or dips, take care of them. it will be a PITA
later when your tiles start to break or wobble.
you can use runny Thinset or some 20 min. drywall mud like i do. works like a charm and never had a call back.


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## BUGBOAT (Oct 25, 2005)

Ok, took up part of the old vinyl floor. It appears that the 1/4 inch plywood my be lauan. I have heard that you definitely dont want to put tile over lauan. How do I tell if it is lauan or regular plywood? I guess when in doubt rip it out. I'll probably take up the plywood just in case. 

Eric


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## Duckman1 (Oct 14, 2004)

Remove all the Vinyl flooring and underlayment. Take out the screws nails staples etc. Sweep floor and install 1/2" cement backer board with thinset mortar under the sheets and screw it down to your subfloor. Tile away! You need to use thinset mortar for those size tiles also.


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## cityboy2977 (Jul 27, 2009)

absolutely !!!
everyone should stay away from that mastic crap they sell. thinset is the only way to go IMO.
if you do rip up the old 1/4 ply then i would go with 1/2 cement board. but if not, just screw the hell out of it and go right over top with your 1/4 backer. 
there is absolutely no reason to tear up the 1/4 ply if you place a tile backer on top of it.


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## Wendy (Oct 6, 2008)

Definatly important to lay the backer board in thinset like you would tile. it'll fill in all the little dips and create a good solid floor. 

Do you guys tape the seams? I always have.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I don't know how I missed this the first time.

It looks like you've already pulled the vinyl and luan so you should be all set. Whatever you do I wouldn't use 1/4" backer board. That stuff is for walls not floors!

Use the 1/2" backer and as others have said, trowel down a layer of thinset and set the board in it. I used to screw it down too but I quit doing that and just nail it down with 1-1/4" roofing nails. Nail it about every 6" along the edges of the board and every 8" in the field. Once the thinset is set you'll be good to go. Then use fiberglass mesh tape on the seams and a coat of thinset on the joints and you're ready for tile. I've been doing it this way for years and never had a problem.

John


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## BUGBOAT (Oct 25, 2005)

1/2 backer board it is then. What brand do you use? It gets a little confusing when you look at all the choices. Densheild, Densguard, Durock, Hardibacker, just to name a few. Have you ever use Ditra. And yes, of course, I plan on useing thinset to lay the backer board. Thanks for all your help so far.

Eric


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## Direwolf (Feb 13, 2003)

BUGBOAT said:


> 1/2 backer board it is then. What brand do you use? It gets a little confusing when you look at all the choices. Densheild, Densguard, Durock, Hardibacker, just to name a few. Have you ever use Ditra. And yes, of course, I plan on useing thinset to lay the backer board. Thanks for all your help so far.
> 
> Eric


One quick question... do you know the floor joist spacing? 

jpollman hit it right on, and based on a lot of other posts I read of his, and my own fairly extensive knowledge of building house/home improvement, hit hits it right on (although I had never thought of using roofing nails... good tip!).


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I love Denshield!

I quit using Durock a long time ago. It works fine but it's so heavy and hard to work with that when I discovered Denshield I made the switch. Actually Hardibacker is fine too but not as easy to cut as Denshield. 

I've got one other suggestion too. Unless you think you can do the job rather quickly I'd spend a couple bucks and buy one of those Workforce tile saws you can get at Home Depot. They're only $79 and that's probably about what you're going to spend on a one day rental. I've got a very nice tile saw that I spent over $600 on. I've used the heck out of it and it still works great. But it's so darn big and heavy that it's a pain to move around. About four years ago I was remodeling an upstairs bathroom for a customer. There was a ton of cutting to do because I was doing floor, walls, and a shower. I didn't want to be running up and down the stairs for every cut. My big saw was too much to set up in that area so I bought one of those $80 saws. It kicks butt!! To tell you the truth I've only used my big saw ONCE since I bought this little one. It's worth its weight in gold.

You're saving a lot of money by doing the install yourself so use a little bit of it and get a saw. Then you can take your time and not rush through the job because you're on the clock with a rental. Heck when you're done you could probably still get forty or fifty bucks for it on craigslist.


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## Topshelf (May 24, 2005)

I have borrowed those cheap home depot saws and JPollman is right on they are worth the money. It took me a couple of weeks to do a 24 x 12 L shaped kitchen/porch area. Lots of cuts, lots of fitting, etc, etc.
I have a tendancy to go slow to get it right attitude for home improvement so it was worth having that saw close by.

That and someone said prep work is key and I agree 100%. Tile is unforgiving if the floor is not even.

One thing that I didnt see mentioned is finish floor levels. Take the time to make sure that when you get done tiling, your finish floor level matchs your other existing floors. Otherwise you will have a serious speed bumb to deal with.

My 2 cents


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## BUGBOAT (Oct 25, 2005)

Joists are 16'' on center, 2x10's, about an 11ft span. The house is only 7 years old and they used that 3/4'' osb thats made for subfloor's. I already have a small tile saw that I used for a fireplace project I did a while back. This job is going to be about 300 sq. ft. Dining room into the kitchen into the laudry area into the half bath. Lots of cuts working around the cabinets etc. After doing a little measuring, 1/2'' backer will be cutting it close on clearance issues with the appliances. Dishwasher, fridge with cabinet above, transition to hallway floor, and doors. Doors can be cut down, transitions can be put in, the cabinet could be removed. The biggest problem is the dishwasher. Is there any way 1/4'' board could be used with sucsess? Most everything I have researched says 1/4'' backer is acceptable. 

Eric


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## Duckman1 (Oct 14, 2004)

Don't understand what the tile height has to do with the dishwasher? You don't need to tile under it just up to the front kick plate. Most dishwasher kick panels come in 2 pieces for easy access. Your max height for backer, mud,and tiles should only be 1.125" max. Builder didn't leave you that much clearance when built?


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## Still Wait'n (Nov 25, 2005)

Duckman1 said:


> Don't understand what the tile height has to do with the dishwasher? You don't need to tile under it just up to the front kick plate. Most dishwasher kick panels come in 2 pieces for easy access. Your max height for backer, mud,and tiles should only be 1.125" max. Builder didn't leave you that much clearance when built?


It can be a problem if you ever have to take the dish washer out.


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## BUGBOAT (Oct 25, 2005)

I plan on having the tile last a lot longer than the dishwasher. Even though it is new, I am guessing 10 years max. I don't want to have to take out the counters to replace the dish washer.

I was counting on about 7/8" to and inch total raise in height with 1/2" backer. That would be really close to having enough room for the dish washer to fit under the counter. There is no way I have 1.125" of clearance. Plus all the extra work with cutting down the doors and removeing a cabinet over the fridge that I really would like to keep. 

Has anyone had sucsess with using 1/4" backer board on the floor?


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## Jekart (Apr 27, 2006)

I used 1/4" board over the 3/4" OSB flooring in my kitchen, entry ways and bathroom. It turned out fantastic and I have not had a so much as a crack in the grout. 

I did screw the OSB down some more to make sure there was no movement in it and I also used the expensive cement board screws in every single spot that was marked on the boards.

So far I am very pleased but it has only been down 2 years.

Please note:
** This was my first tile job and I am not an expert**


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## kneedeep (May 30, 2008)

BUGBOAT said:


> I plan on having the tile last a lot longer than the dishwasher. Even though it is new, I am guessing 10 years max. I don't want to have to take out the counters to replace the dish washer.
> 
> I was counting on about 7/8" to and inch total raise in height with 1/2" backer. That would be really close to having enough room for the dish washer to fit under the counter. There is no way I have 1.125" of clearance. Plus all the extra work with cutting down the doors and removeing a cabinet over the fridge that I really would like to keep.
> 
> Has anyone had sucsess with using 1/4" backer board on the floor?


 
Yes I almost alway use 1/4 backer board on the floor unless I need the subfloor higher. I also have used Ditra and it works well also but I perfer hardi. P.M. me if you have any questions.


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## jpollman (Jan 14, 2001)

I'd say that if height is an issue and 1/2" is too thick you don't have much of a choice. Give it a try and hope for the best. I've never used 1/4" for floors because I've always been told that it's strictly for walls. 

Good luck!

John


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## BUGBOAT (Oct 25, 2005)

I've done a lot of reading on different forums and websites lately. I think I am going to use hardibacker at 1/4". The hardibacker website says it is fine to use 1/4" board over 3/4 osb. They also say the only advantage to using 1/2" board is to raise the hight for transitions. 

Thank you to everyone for the help. This is my first "real" tile project and I want it to come out well. I'll let you know how it turns out. And I'll let you know how it looks in say 5-10 years. :lol:

Eric


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## kneedeep (May 30, 2008)

BUGBOAT said:


> I've done a lot of reading on different forums and websites lately. I think I am going to use hardibacker at 1/4". The hardibacker website says it is fine to use 1/4" board over 3/4 osb. They also say the only advantage to using 1/2" board is to raise the hight for transitions.
> 
> Thank you to everyone for the help. This is my first "real" tile project and I want it to come out well. I'll let you know how it turns out. And I'll let you know how it looks in say 5-10 years. :lol:
> 
> Eric


 
Just remember it is all in the layout. Take you time to lay it out first and make sure you are square, measure twice. You will be fine with the 1/4 just make sure you screw it down good. Good luck!


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