# beeper collar, bell, gps



## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

I am currently using just a bell on my 7 month old WPG but with a pending trip to the U.P. and also looking down the road at future needs (e-collar?) I am thinking of upgrading. My question is what does anyone feel is needed to control, keep track of, and make sure I bring my dog home when I am done. Given that they are normally closer working dogs I didn't know if gps would be over kill or if a bell and an e-collar is the answer or is there some kind of a combo collar that would work best. Or should I just stay home and watch hunting on tv. 

Thanks for your help.


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

Jim58 said:


> My question is what does anyone feel is needed to control, keep track of, and make sure I bring my dog home when I am done.


A good foundation of obedience training and yard work.

I run my dogs with a bell and a beeper on point mode. The bell is so I can keep track of them when they're running and the beeper is so I can find them when they're pointing. There are other ways to do it, but this is what I prefer and what seems to work for me.

They do usually wear e-collars, but honestly, they don't get used much in the woods. An e-collar isn't an insurance policy or a remote control for your dog -- it's more a training tool than anything else.

KW


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Buy the gps collar either garmin or all in one sport dog because if you lose track of where your dog is would not be nice to know where the dog is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

A tracking collar isn't a bad investment. I've lost the dogs a couple of times and I can tell you the e-collar was worthless in those cases, but at least with the Garmin I could follow and eventually find the dog(s).

The Sportdog combo collar might be a good way to go but I have no idea how reliable it is.


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## Grouse Seeker (Nov 27, 2010)

I run a bell and ecollar on my close working brit. She's rarely out of eyesight for more than 1 minute so I've never considered a gps. If I had a bigger running dog the decision would be tougher.


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## Velvet Marbles (Oct 2, 2010)

I considered before running my weim in hunting woods for the first time. But he's a close running dog who "checks in" often if he goes out of sight. So no need for. My newest older weim needs a gps collar when running in the yard! I think it's a decision made per each dog. Depends on how obedient & responsive your dog is to you in a hunting scenario. 

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## i missed again (Sep 7, 2008)

I have the sportdog combo and love


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

I have it all.... bells, beeper/shock collars, garmin gps. Here's my 2¢. The garmin is always used in the woods no matter what. In open fields I use beeper collars without garmin but might consider doing so in western states. Depending on the density of cover in the woods will determine whether I'll use beepers or bells. The cover determines how far my dogs range. If I had to make a choice due to budget I would consider your "normal" hunting environment in order to decide what to get. I would always choose the garmin even if I had a close working dog. All it takes is one deer chase or unusual circumstance (dog chased by wolf... personal experience) and you'll be glad you can track your dog. I less and less use a shock collar when hunting unless using beepers which enables remote on/off access to beepers. However I rarely use shock collars on dogs in hunting scenario as it can cause more problems than it worth (blinking birds/refusal to hunt). I guess if pushed I would chose garmin and a large bell for a close to medium ranging dog(0-75 yds.) and garmin and beeper for big ranging dog (75 yds & beyond). Scratch the shock collar if necessary.


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## fish fanatic jr. (Feb 18, 2004)

After this weekend my descion is made getting a garmin without a doubt.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for all the great feedback. I was leaning towards the gps systems but didn't want to get something I didn't really need. I know there has been a lot of discussion about the various brands, is there anything that I should stay away from?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim58 said:


> Thanks for all the great feedback. I was leaning towards the gps systems but didn't want to get something I didn't really need. I know there has been a lot of discussion about the various brands, is there anything that I should stay away from?
> 
> Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Tracker has been around forever, I have no experience with it.

Garmin has a nice product and I use it regularly. But I have had a handheld fail after two seasons. Others here have had collars die on them.

Sportdog has a patchy record with e-collars but the new combo unit is a mystery in terms of reliability. I've heard nothing about it until this thread started.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Tracker has been around forever, I have no experience with it.
> 
> Garmin has a nice product and I use it regularly. But I have had a handheld fail after two seasons. Others here have had collars die on them.
> 
> Sportdog has a patchy record with e-collars but the new combo unit is a mystery in terms of reliability. I've heard nothing about it until this thread started.


I use Garmin astro 22o with DC30 collars (now discontinued in lieu of DC40). I purchased continental US topo maps for unit but be awre that you will need a bigger SIMM card for this. Never had trouble with handheld (have 2, one for myself & one for my wife who hunts with me). I have had one issue with collar not taking charge but learned how to disassemble collar and unplug battery which resets it.... solved the problem.

I've had no experience with the new Sportdog system but it does look interesting. It has no beeper system for those looking for that and I don't know about available upgrades (topo maps) or range. I'm always hesitant to jump in with a new product until proven.

The interesting news is that Garmin has bought Tri-Tronics and so it should be interesting to see what comes from that marriage!


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

For me the most important thing is Bell and an e collar. When I am hunting I am also training. I would go with a Ecollar/ beeper combo.
A medium bell will be easier on the dogs ears in the long run. 

I have a tracker. It works well but It is not as easy to use. If my dog was lost I would rather a tracker than a garmin. Garmins lose contact a lot and the the batteries dont last as long as the tracker. Tracker would work for days and will track a dog for 6-7 miles. Garmin maybe has a full 24 hour charge and locates about a mile in the open. Garmin are better for training or hunting finding your dog on point or finding your truck.

I love my Garmin. It changes the way you hunt. I left all my electronics in the truck last week to see how I would fair. I can tell you I am not nearly as good at finding my dog as I used to be with out a beeper or garmin. 

Ben


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Is the 320 W/DC40 worth the extra $100 over the 220 W/DC40? Does the pointing dog function on both units replace a beeper collar? Does anyone have any experience with the Sportdog system?

Fish Fantic what changed last weekend?


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim58 said:


> Is the 320 W/DC40 worth the extra $100 over the 220 W/DC40? Does the pointing dog function on both units replace a beeper collar? Does anyone have any experience with the Sportdog system?
> 
> Fish Fantic what changed last weekend?


Point alert on the garmin is pretty worthless in my experience. You're better off with a TriTronics beeper for that.


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## GSP Gal (Nov 12, 2005)

I switched to electronic about 5 years ago. I find my patience level getting thin when stuff doesn't work. I have to mail my Tritronics in after using it for two years. Sport dog doesn't last a season for me.

I love the stuff when it works, but very angry when I put the receipt for $500+ in the box to mail off for repairs.

I doubt I will be investing in a Garmin, definitely not a Sportdog.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Point alert on the garmin is pretty worthless in my experience. You're better off with a TriTronics beeper for that.


My experience has been just the opposite. I've set the preferences to reset every 30 seconds and found that just about the time I've noticed the absence of bell noise that the Garmin beeps notifying that dog is on point. When I use the beeper I find that at almost the same time the beeper alerts notifying a point that the garmin beeps. The beauty of the garmin is that once I look at the unit I can tell the exact direction and distance I am from the dog.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

GSP Gal said:


> I switched to electronic about 5 years ago. I find my patience level getting thin when stuff doesn't work. I have to mail my Tritronics in after using it for two years. Sport dog doesn't last a season for me.
> 
> I love the stuff when it works, but very angry when I put the receipt for $500+ in the box to mail off for repairs.
> 
> I doubt I will be investing in a Garmin, definitely not a Sportdog.


The only thing I have had trouble with is the durability of the Tri-Tronics beepers but never any issues with shock collars. However I do tip my hat to Tri-Tronics for an excellent "trade up" program even for non working units you have.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

northwinsetter said:


> The only thing I have had trouble with is the durability of the Tri-Tronics beepers but never any issues with shock collars. However I do tip my hat to Tri-Tronics for an excellent "trade up" program even for non working units you have.


Are you talking about the old TT beepers, the new ones, or both? I hated the old one but love the new model.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Are you talking about the old TT beepers, the new ones, or both? I hated the old one but love the new model.


Yes I was. I have traded up to the new model with two of them just recently but haven't received them yet. I'm anxious to see if they stand up better.... assuming that's something that was addressed in the new design.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

It sounds like I am going to be spending some money (it seems to happen every time I post on here ) so where is everyone getting the best deals and service on the Garmins?


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Jim58 said:


> It sounds like I am going to be spending some money (it seems to happen every time I post on here ) so where is everyone getting the best deals and service on the Garmins?


I order mine online..... have found best prices on amazon. Mind you if memory serves correctly Lion Country has a blow out sale on units with discontinued DC30 collars. The Astro will synch with the new DC40 if you ever want to upgrade or add another collar. In the reviews I read about the differences between the 30's & 40's I didn't see any upgrades that had much impact on upland hunting. In pricing just make sure you are getting a system (unit & collar) and not just the unit.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks northwinsetter.

GSP Gal what issues have you had with Garmin?


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## us11857 (Nov 1, 2007)

I used to be a big fan of the bell, I love the sound in the woods. They work great hunting with one dog. I have retired bells and hung them with picture of my old bird dogs (call me sentimental). Now, we are hunting with two dogs and multiple dogs with bells on sort of drive you nuts  so I traded up for the new tritronics beeper and it works great, a lot easier to find the dog after he stopped. The "hawk scream" scared the heck :yikes: out of my dog, and me. So we use the double beep and beep on point. My dad runs his dog along side mine with a bell and and old Tritronics beeper that beeps on point. It seems to work pretty well. 

I love bells for keeping track of the dog, and beeps for finding them.


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

At 7 months of age , hard for me to imagine having enough time to develop a reliable handle on a pup even a GWP.. But if you must bell& e-collar seems to make the most sense. Remember the grouse woods is a little different than your back yard or training field it has stimulators in it that a good pup will find hard to resist 
I would think that you would be most concerned about having a dog hunt for you begin stauching on point and even beginning the retrieveing process.
Remember the two least standards in a hunting dog are these...will they except gunfire and at the end of the hunt go home with you. What they do during the hunt is dependant on your standards
have a great time in the woods

hal


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## Grouse Seeker (Nov 27, 2010)

I would want the 320 simply because the center toggle bottom looks like it would be easier to use than the round toggle of the 220. My Garmin has the round center toggle and when I want the cursor to move up it goes right and when I want the cursor to right it goes down, etc. If you plan on naming waypoints and tracks the center toggle needs to go where you want it to. The square design of the 320 "seems" like it would work better.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

gundogguy said:


> At 7 months of age , hard for me to imagine having enough time to develop a reliable handle on a pup even a GWP.. But if you must bell& e-collar seems to make the most sense. Remember the grouse woods is a little different than your back yard or training field it has stimulators in it that a good pup will find hard to resist
> I would think that you would be most concerned about having a dog hunt for you begin stauching on point and even beginning the retrieveing process.
> Remember the two least standards in a hunting dog are these...will they except gunfire and at the end of the hunt go home with you. What they do during the hunt is dependant on your standards
> have a great time in the woods
> ...


Probably some of the best statements and advice ever given on this forum.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Gdg/wch 
I am not sure I followed that completely. I realize Max is just getting started in life and he will not be exposed to an e-collar until well after his NA test next spring. I was trying to figure out what was the best all around system for both now and the future. I wasn't sure if given his close working nature I would be an over protective owner wasting his money buying a gps system or if it would be a good choice. I also wasn't sure initially what all was the covered with these systems beeper,e-collar,ect. Although I greatly appreciate the advice I think the above may have been a little over my head. I am kind of new at the pointing dog thing and all of the gadgets that are available. I do know my number one goal is to enjoy the walk in the woods and bring Max home safe when I am done. I think that may be some of what you are trying to tell me.
Thaks again for your help

Jim

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Grouse Seeker said:


> I would want the 320 simply because the center toggle bottom looks like it would be easier to use than the round toggle of the 220. My Garmin has the round center toggle and when I want the cursor to move up it goes right and when I want the cursor to right it goes down, etc. If you plan on naming waypoints and tracks the center toggle needs to go where you want it to. The square design of the 320 "seems" like it would work better.


Thanks Grouse Seeker, when I was reading the reviews on them it sounded like there may be some good advantages to the 320 but you know how the propaganda can be, "every thing is better". Its nice to get first hand experiences.

Jim


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Grouse Seeker said:


> I would want the 320 simply because the center toggle bottom looks like it would be easier to use than the round toggle of the 220. My Garmin has the round center toggle and when I want the cursor to move up it goes right and when I want the cursor to right it goes down, etc. If you plan on naming waypoints and tracks the center toggle needs to go where you want it to. The square design of the 320 "seems" like it would work better.


When I first got my 220 I frequently had the issues you describe. I called it the "cursor gremlins" as that dumb arrow seemed to have a mind of it's own and was responding in ways I was convinced were solely to tick me off. However after some trial & error I have discovered that it seems to have to do with trying to do things too quickly before the system had completed the last function. Once I started taking a little more time with entries and being more intentional, the gremlins have left.

The 320 toggle does look as if it may be more functional but I don't normally jump in with new or upgraded products before some reviews from end users come out. In the promotion I read it does sound more complicated and that changes/upgrades are more for hound/long range type of hunting.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Jim,
This is only an opinion but, A gps and a tracker are things I would add after you get an e collar. An ecollar will help you not lose a dog. You can teach a dog with an e collar. A garmin will just let your dog get worse habits and there is nothing you can do but chase the monster you create. When you go hunting you want the dog to go where you want to go. Never the other way around. You make a foundation with a young dog . I am using an e collar with my 5.5 month old male setter. He started showing me he wants to do things his way. You have to stop that early otherwise you back pedal the rest of his life. Just be smart with an e collar, dont use it as a revenge tool.

K9werenet said it is not a remote for your dog. I completely disagree, in the right hands it is. 

Bell and ecollar.
I would get a Tritronics or a Dogtra. Beeper function on the dogtra is easier to use the tritronics is a little louder.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

E-collars should never be used in hunting or with live bird scenarios to train a bird dog, only reinforce what is fully learned. The vast majority of pro trainers will tell you that. An e-collar is definitely invaluable to reinforce what is already FULLY learned when your dog tests you & challenges what they know they are supposed to do. There are a few exceptions to this general rule (deer chasing, porcupine & skunk contact when caught early). With a young dog in the woods let the wild birds train your dog. They will be more successful than you can be with a shock collar. More problems are caused when the remote for e-collar is in the hand of a handler that thinks they know exactly what their dog is thinking or reacting to, than they are worth. Every time I see a dog that flags, lacks intensity, blinks birds, quits hunting or refuses to stay with their handler I have found a handler who has used electricity to train their dog. Now not all dogs respond this way. You will find success stories but you will also find "train wreck" stories. How do you know which story your dog will be? Until you are absolutely convinced your dog is whoa broke and knows exactly and fully what they are to do and how they are to respond when birds are present keep your finger off the shock button!

This is why in the woods I would recommend a bell or beeper and gps over an e-collar.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Merimac/Northwin

I can certainly see both sides of this and I am not completly sure where I fit into it so let me try to explain where we are at and why so you can see if you think I am on the right track or not. First we have been training under the direction to with hold e-collar work untill after Max has NA tested and also matured more (I am not sure if this is best or not). Max has a very steady point with no movement once he is sure he has good scent. I have not done any whoa or steady work with him yet when he is on point. He chases at the flush (some in our training group say to allow this untill after NA and some want me to start to steady him now) his natural retrieve is quite good and I have been doing yard work to improve it. When hunting he works to about 75 yds and seems very intent on following my lead (turns when I turn and directs with hand signals for the most part, comes on comand but this is the area I have noticed he may be starting to test). This is the snap shot of where we are at and is what has lead to the question of what to do now and what to purchase/use now and what to wait untill the future to purchase or implement. I was also trying to determine if a gps system was a good idea and also what type of combinations and units were available and in what order to purchase them.

Thanks
Jim


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Jim58 said:


> Merimac/Northwin
> 
> I can certainly see both sides of this and I am not completly sure where I fit into it so let me try to explain where we are at and why so you can see if you think I am on the right track or not. First we have been training under the direction to with hold e-collar work untill after Max has NA tested and also matured more (I am not sure if this is best or not). Max has a very steady point with no movement once he is sure he has good scent. I have not done any whoa or steady work with him yet when he is on point. He chases at the flush (some in our training group say to allow this untill after NA and some want me to start to steady him now) his natural retrieve is quite good and I have been doing yard work to improve it. When hunting he works to about 75 yds and seems very intent on following my lead (turns when I turn and directs with hand signals for the most part, comes on comand but this is the area I have noticed he may be starting to test). This is the snap shot of where we are at and is what has lead to the question of what to do now and what to purchase/use now and what to wait untill the future to purchase or implement. I was also trying to determine if a gps system was a good idea and also what type of combinations and units were available and in what order to purchase them.
> 
> ...


I personally do not train for "steady to wing & shot" because with some of my dogs I run NSTRA competition & this can be detrimental to that form of competition. However I admire those that train for this function and am always amazed at what dogs will do to please us. 
With that said, in the situation you are describing if there is a strong bond with you and your partner let me remind you of one crucial fact that you have over your dog.... your dog is even more afraid of losing you than you are of losing them! Start from that premise. 
However if you keep popping him with the e-collar, all he learns is that his range limit is when he feels the voltage on his neck. That doesn't translate well to hunt tests without collars. However if the dog learns that he's going to lose you if he doesn't check in regularly.... and that has to happen at first without you giving a point of reference (calling, whistle, etc.).... they learn quickly to shorten up their range. Because they don't want to lose you, they learn they need to hear you so they can come back to you. This time of year in the woods is a great time to instill this when the cover is still as heavy as it is.
Again this is where the gps collar comes in handy for calming our fears of losing our dogs. I agree that it's easy to panic or become impatient for the results you desire but here is one thing I say with certainty and confidence .... any dog that has been trained with an e-collar at some point will become "collar wise" (perfect behavior with the collar but go renegade when it's not on). And so if you are looking towards times where you want certain behavior but you can't use an e-collar I think you will find it easier to train now for what you want later. You can do it now or do it later but at some point you will have to instill in your dog the desired behavior and get him to respond without electricity.


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## zeeke33 (Feb 7, 2009)

combo

Can anyone give Jim any insight on the Sport Dog offering, the Tek-v1lt that offers gps and an e-collar with vibe and tone in one package. It can be purchased all together or in modules as the need and wallet see fit. Anybody got one?


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

zeeke33 said:


> combo
> 
> Can anyone give Jim any insight on the Sport Dog offering, the Tek-v1lt that offers gps and an e-collar with vibe and tone in one package. It can be purchased all together or in modules as the need and wallet see fit. Anybody got one?


Here's a pretty good review on the Sport Tek

http://www.gundogsupply.com/sportdog-tek-review.html

If I'm reading correctly the Sport Tek offers a e-collar/ dog tracking system without any personal gps navigational capabilities. In comparison the Garmin Astro system offers dog tracking and gps navigational capabilities but without an e-collar. If this is correct then the decision is between what you want more... an e-collar or a personal gps that offers, mapping, navigation & being able to mark locations.
Personally I want both but it's not available in one system. And so I wait to see what Garmin's purchase of Tri-Tronics will bring in the future.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Northwin,
I think our bond is our strongest asset (next to his breeding and all of the training help) my wife gets a little jealous of my dog bonding she seems to think I treat them better than her (I am sure its not true). He does seem to do a good job of keeping an eye on me and checking back in I am most concerned with that one time when he gets distracted or chases something he shouldnt. I am sure it will happen sooner or later as it always did on occasion with my flushing dogs. I am sure some day he will start doing things that will need a stronger correction but to tell the truth I am kind of afraid of the E-collar and mistakes I might make with it. That is in large part why I am content to wait untill the breeder and NAVHDA group think its time to train me and condition the dog for it.

Zeeke33,

Thanks for the help/bump looking for feedback on the Sport dog I really appreciate it.

Jim


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Jim58 said:


> Northwin,
> I am kind of afraid of the E-collar and mistakes I might make with it.


Keep that at the forefront of your plans and you won't go too far wrong.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Jim58 said:


> . . .looking for feedback on the Sport dog I really appreciate it.Jim


Don't know if you belong to the Pointing Dog Journal website, but there's a guy from Utah that has written a review of his experience with the Sport Dog collar under the "Gears and Gadgets" sub forum.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

northwinsetter said:


> E-collars should never be used in hunting or with live bird scenarios to train a bird dog, only reinforce what is fully learned. The vast majority of pro trainers will tell you that. An e-collar is definitely invaluable to reinforce what is already FULLY learned when your dog tests you & challenges what they know they are supposed to do. There are a few exceptions to this general rule (deer chasing, porcupine & skunk contact when caught early). With a young dog in the woods let the wild birds train your dog. They will be more successful than you can be with a shock collar. More problems are caused when the remote for e-collar is in the hand of a handler that thinks they know exactly what their dog is thinking or reacting to, than they are worth. Every time I see a dog that flags, lacks intensity, blinks birds, quits hunting or refuses to stay with their handler I have found a handler who has used electricity to train their dog. Now not all dogs respond this way. You will find success stories but you will also find "train wreck" stories. How do you know which story your dog will be? Until you are absolutely convinced your dog is whoa broke and knows exactly and fully what they are to do and how they are to respond when birds are present keep your finger off the shock button!
> 
> This is why in the woods I would recommend a bell or beeper and gps over an e-collar.


I was not speaking about shocking a dog on birds. My post was in reference to handling. I do use an e collar when on birds though. My dogs do not flag. The key is knowing when and why to use it.


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Merimac said:


> The key is knowing when and why to use it.


I would tend to agree with that even though it's likely that we would not completely agree on the specifics of the when & why. And that's okay. What makes it difficult in these forum discussions is that there are so many factors that contribute (the specifics of situations, dog breed, dog temperament, handler experience, goals) to determining what the best answer should be. 

However with that said, my general advice will always be to avoid e-collar use in the field to train with whether it be with handling or on birds... especially in this situation with a 7 month old WPG that leans more toward being a softer dog when it comes to pressure.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

northwinsetter said:


> Here's a pretty good review on the Sport Tek
> 
> http://www.gundogsupply.com/sportdog-tek-review.html
> 
> ...


Thanks that really was a good review.

Kek25,
I do check in there sometimes, I will look it up.

Thanks
Jim


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## k9wernet (Oct 15, 2007)

northwinsetter said:


> Here's a pretty good review on the Sport Tek
> 
> http://www.gundogsupply.com/sportdog-tek-review.html
> 
> If I'm reading correctly the Sport Tek offers a e-collar/ dog tracking system without any personal gps navigational capabilities.


I had a long conversation with a SportDog sales rep yesterday. I've been a SportDog guy for 6 or 7 years and never had any serious complaints. You can't beat the price on their gear. Last year I bought a two dog 1850 e-collar/beeper unit and so far, really like it.

In the end, I decided the time wasn't right to pull the trigger on the Tek. Here's where I think they missed the mark:

1) Navigational capabilities-- Basically, you can see your dog's location in relation to your location, or in relation to any waypoints you've pre-programmed, but there's no base map, no topo capabilities (so no roads, streams, etc), and NO BACKUP capabilities. I can't believe they left that out! There's no removable memory card, and no communication port to link to a computer. 

One of the more appealing aspects of the Astro for me (because I'm a huge geek) is the ability to go home in the evening, link up with Google Earth, and see where my dog was throughout the day. You can't do that with the Tek 1.0. You can't view your waypoints on a map, and you can't back them up. BOO!

2) Beeper -- This unit has NO INTEGRATED BEEPER. When your dog points, the handheld beeps or vibrates. However, you then need to follow the arrow on the handheld to find your dog. This means one hand on your, er, gun, and one hand on your, er, unit...  

You can use a separate beeper collar, but you lose the ability to control your beeper remotely (the 1850 has a "locate" feature on the handheld that I LOVE). And good luck keeping that beeper on the top of your dog's neck! The Tek collar DOES NOT have room on it to add a beeper. This means a beeper must sit solo on a separate collar, and will most likely end up riding on your dog like a St. Bernard's barrel.

I understand that the Astro is just a tracking tool, but it seems like if SportDog went to the trouble of integrating the ecollar, they'd also integrate the beeper. The end result is the same -- you'll need two handhelds... actually three, because I want another, feature rich GPS unit. And a cell phone... and a camera... and a vest with lots of pockets!

I don't use an Astro, and have always viewed GPS tracking as kind of superfluous. I hunt with guys who use them and to each his own, but I've never seen that the benefit was worth the investment. If I can't find my dog or my dog can't find me, it probably means we have some yard work/obedience to do. And the end result is the same: I'm standing in the woods shouting and blowing a whistle. GPS won't bring your dog back to you.

The only reason I looked into this was because I needed to replace my handheld GPS this week, and I probably won't consider another tracking collar unless I find myself needing both a new e-collar and a new GPS.

My $.02

KW


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks KW that is a lot of good input. I never thought about how useful it might be to have an idea what's over the next hill when you are hunting someplace new.

Jim


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

k9wernet said:


> I don't use an Astro, and have always viewed GPS tracking as kind of superfluous. I hunt with guys who use them and to each his own, but I've never seen that the benefit was worth the investment. If I can't find my dog or my dog can't find me, it probably means we have some yard work/obedience to do. And the end result is the same: I'm standing in the woods shouting and blowing a whistle. GPS won't bring your dog back to you.


Personal Experience.... 2009 Atlanta MI. We were hunting with 2 dogs and were about a mile from the truck. Both dogs were wearing gps tracking collars and a Tri-Tronic beeper/e-collar. One dog got out a little far out for too long (85 to 95 yards according to Garmin Astro). I was attempting a first attempt to call the dog back in (whistle) when suddenly he began to get farther and farther away. Within 2.5 minutes his distance was registering well over 800 yards and growing. It peaked at about 875 yards but once it registered i was having a real problem I was able to maintain the aprox. 800 yard distance by tracking him. After about 5 minutes of fast walking through the woods & down a two track the distance began to decrease until I tracked him right back to the truck where he had run to and wouldn't leave his hole in the dog trailer, no matter how much I coaxed him. He just laid there, looking at me and shaking. After investigation we found running wolf tracks, along with his tracks in the sandy two track. No yard work can correct this.... whistle is a waste of time.... shock collar would have added to what was scaring him. The best answer is to track the dog down as fast as possible before the mauling begins.
After that experience I will forever be a tracking collar advocate and based on further research, according to locals in the U.P. and Wisconsin and Minnesota, these wolf encounters have become more common over the last few years.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

Kevin is on target. Take it from me, it's a helpless feeling to stare at the Astro seeing your dog is going to cross railroad tracks and hear a train coming. Once the dog gets so far out it can't hear you you're rather screwed. I lucked out. But I did have to sweat it out while I waited for the train to go by while watching the dog run around by it on the screen. 

Electronics are not a substitute for training.

GPS is simply peace of mind in case you and the dog have a bad day and get separated.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Its kind of funny how I started this thread out in hopes I would hear things like WPG's are slow close working dogs you dont need a gps or the things that have been discussed like yard work and more training ect. and the results would be I would not feel the need to spend $600 on a gps system. But after reading all the pros and cons and helpful input the one thing it did do is remind me that after 41 years of hunting I know that sooner or later its going to happen. No matter how much yard work and training one day he is not going to respond to my whistle. Maybe it will be a wolf or a trap around his foot or neck or falling down a well at the abandoned farm sites in Livingston county I loved to hunt pheasants on in the 70's or maybe it will just be close to the end and he will be laying there waiting for me. So after all the years in the past not knowing any better I guess to me its not going to be such a hard choice after all. I'll start with the gps and go from there.

Thanks for helping me sort it out
Jim


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Jim58 said:


> 'll start with the gps and go from there.


I'm not sure what your exact location is but if you're interested, we're close enough and it can be arranged, I'd be happy to meet up and let you have a test run with one to see how they operate. Send me a pm if you'd be interested.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Kevin is on target. Take it from me, it's a helpless feeling to stare at the Astro seeing your dog is going to cross railroad tracks and hear a train coming. Once the dog gets so far out it can't hear you you're rather screwed. I lucked out. But I did have to sweat it out while I waited for the train to go by while watching the dog run around by it on the screen.
> 
> Electronics are not a substitute for training.
> 
> GPS is simply peace of mind in case you and the dog have a bad day and get separated.


Yep, good reason for an e-collar. Train your dog, don't watch it on a GPS running away. Make it handle before it runs away. Electronics help you train.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

northwinsetter said:


> I'm not sure what your exact location is but if you're interested, we're close enough and it can be arranged, I'd be happy to meet up and let you have a test run with one to see how they operate. Send me a pm if you'd be interested.


You can get a GPS but if you get a GPS before an E collar you are making a mistake. Maybe you should spend your money on a pro trainer to teach you what you need to know. If a dog does not behave at 30 feet it sure wont at 200 yards. Start with the basics. Don't teach yourself to chase a dog teach your dog to hunt for you. Before the ecollar get a check cord. An Astro is a great tool but that should be a ways down the road. A dog must handle before running. If your dogs are being eaten by a wolf or bears than a tracker/garmin wont help. You will find your chewed up dog with a collar on his neck. Teach your dog to handle first and foremost.. worry about the other crap later.

Also if you have a setter that got out 80 -90 yards and that is too far, you don't need an astro. A beeper would be fine, cheaper and way more simple. How far does your dog typically run? If it is under 100 yards than get a beeper and be done with it. The Astro is fun/ informative but not needed. 

Ben


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

If you're worried about losing your dog buy an e-collar, beeper, and gps or tracker. 

I'm serious.

But don't think that the beepr or gps will prevent bad things from happening. Proper e-collar training will help you work with your dog, aid in teaching it to handle, and allow you to keep it away from things you don't want it around. The beeper will help you keep track of the dog and locate it when he is pointing. The GPS is good for the "oh ****" moment when all of your training falls apart and the dog gets away from you...and ALL handlers and dogs have a bad day, anyone that tells you otherwise is a complete liar.

Good luck.


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Some where during this thread it seems that some have gotten the idea that I am having an issue keeping track of my dog and this is not the case at all (at least not yet ). At 7 months he is far from perfect but he always stays in contact at this point and returns when called. This is the reason I was asking about the need for a gps system or if other options were a better place to spend my money now and in the future. I realize that at some point I probably will need to introduce him to a e-collar and was in hopes that there was a smart money option that included both along with possibly a beeper and could be upgraded as the need arose. In years past before we even thought about such things as gps I just clipped on the bell and hunted and there were more than one time I had to go back later and check the hunting coat or over stuffed pillow from the back of the blazer (should of kept that it worked great) that I had left and was lucky to have always found the dog waiting (this more than likely was a lack of training and an American Water Spaniel that would not stop chasing deer). Knowing there are better options today it was my goal to see what was recommend for a 75 yard dog but as this progressed I realized my main concern these days was to make sure he was next to my chair every night.

Jim

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## #8 shot (Aug 27, 2009)

Jim,

If you have not used the e-collar yet I would not start in the woods. He will not know what is going on and may drive him further out or cause a bad connection with the woods. I do use a Garmin on Gemma but not with Rye anymore he knows the rules, well at least for the most part :lol:. Mostly use the gps for myself at this point. Griffs are close working dogs but yours is still a pup and stuff happens in the woods. It depends on what your comfort level is at with him on what you should get. You will need the e-collar at some point and I prefer the beeper to a bell. And as far as hunting tech goes there will always be something new and shiny to buy:evil:!!

Bud


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

gundogguy said:


> At 7 months of age , hard for me to imagine having enough time to develop a reliable handle on a pup even a GWP.. But if you must bell& e-collar seems to make the most sense. Remember the grouse woods is a little different than your back yard or training field it has stimulators in it that a good pup will find hard to resist
> I would think that you would be most concerned about having a dog hunt for you begin stauching on point and even beginning the retrieveing process.
> Remember the two least standards in a hunting dog are these...will they except gunfire and at the end of the hunt go home with you. What they do during the hunt is dependant on your standards
> have a great time in the woods
> ...


Gundogguy,

I must be learning something. I went back and through all the post and tried to keep an open mind (seems I dont always do that) and when I read your post again it was clear what you were saying. I dont know why I was confused the first time. I think one thing that is rattling around in my brain is that I dont totally understand how an e-collar is used to insure a dog returns or for that matter what the proper use is in any situation. I guess it will all be part of my education. By the way as I started typing this I noticed your name and location and realized who you were, we have spoken on the phone about Springers on a couple of occasions.

Jim


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

8 Shot,

I for sure will not be introducing him to the e-collar untill I have experienced help, in fact I had not planned on it untill after his na test if possible (someone recommended that, I dont recall who). You have watched him work and are familar with his manners and range, I dont really see an issue in a normal situation but just was looking at getting the process started. Maybe I should just use a bell or beeper this year and continue to focus on yard work and not worry so much.

Jim


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## northwinsetter (Aug 1, 2011)

Jim58 said:


> Gundogguy,
> 
> I must be learning something. I went back and through all the post and tried to keep an open mind (seems I dont always do that) and when I read your post again it was clear what you were saying. I dont know why I was confused the first time. I think one thing that is rattling around in my brain is that I dont totally understand how an e-collar is used to insure a dog returns or for that matter what the proper use is in any situation. I guess it will all be part of my education. By the way as I started typing this I noticed your name and location and realized who you were, we have spoken on the phone about Springers on a couple of occasions.
> 
> Jim


Here's a pretty good article about e-collar training by arguably one of the best trainers in the country. I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to what he's describing but if you read between the lines I think he's offering some very wise advice.
http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/electronic-collar-training-Page1.htm


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Jim
Thanks for the acknowledgement, though I have not a clue as to who you are. 
I have reread the thread also and I.m amazed at how many folks think that shocking a pup is proper or not proper.
When using the digital elctronic training collar I never think about "shocking" the dog until some learning has occourred.
Proper e-collar conditioning will go a long way in solving many future setbacks or transgressions. That why i really was questioning the validy in hunting a 7 month old pup in earlier post
Remember a dog does not have the strength of character from change bad behavior to good behavior on their own..or better said to change unwanted behavior to the wanted behavior that we ask of them with out training, force, and reinforcing standards.
Most of the things that we want our dogs todo does not come from their breeding program No one breeds dogs that holds point indefintely no breeds dogs that deliver birds to hand on command those behaviors are our ideas not the dogs..Even returning to here is not instinctive
Best of fortunes 
have fun

Hal


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## Jim58 (Jan 16, 2010)

Hal,

No problem, some days I don't have a clue who I am either. I do have a question tho, do you feel I should not hunt him this year and just continue his training or just hunt him casually and train as we go or somewhere in between?

Thanks for your help
Jim

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

gundogguy said:


> ...No one breeds dogs that holds point indefintely...


That's generally true


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## gundogguy (Oct 5, 2008)

Jim58 said:


> Hal,
> 
> No problem, some days I don't have a clue who I am either. I do have a question tho, do you feel I should not hunt him this year and just continue his training or just hunt him casually and train as we go or somewhere in between?
> 
> ...


Jim all I can say is "hunting tears a dog down, training builds a dog up"


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