# SW Mi CWAC rep.



## backroadstravler (Jul 12, 2006)

I am a new CWAC rep for Sw Mi. make your comments here.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

are you replacing a member or representing a group?


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## backroadstravler (Jul 12, 2006)

I am representing a group.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

what is CWAC


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-39002_48670-183526--,00.html

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-39002_48670---,00.html


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

what group, just curious


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## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

Erv- you're getting an earful. :lol: Seriously, if anybody in SW Mi has an opinion or constructive criticism, this is a great chance to be heard. Backroadstravler is one of the nicest, most decent guys you'll ever meet, and will most certainly lend you his ear.

Bout damn time.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

u.p season was perfect. keep it.


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## oldsalt mi (Oct 5, 2010)

Some how give us one more week at the end in the south zone. Or shut it down one day a week and add those days at the end. If state south of us have 100 day or more what is one or two weeks more. I speak only for myself.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

oldsalt mi said:


> Some how give us one more week at the end in the south zone. Or shut it down one day a week and add those days at the end. If state south of us have 100 day or more what is one or two weeks more. I speak only for myself.


they have 60 day seasons too.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Oldsalt 
i agreed esp in sw michigan. I would almost like to have a split in mid october cuz it seems that is always a very slow time around here, and a week or two before late goose and during the first part late goose we always see an abundance of dumb migratory mallards.


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## Branta (Feb 6, 2002)

congrats.... I think.



grow a thick skin! :evil:


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## decoy706 (Jul 28, 2006)

I think Todd retired


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## highcaliberconsecrator (Oct 16, 2009)

Congrats Erv, and thanks for your service!


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

gonna be at least 5 pages..........


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## oldsalt mi (Oct 5, 2010)

T.J Indiana does have a teal season if we count that. Ohio has 61 day duck and 16 day teal. Illinois has a teal season. T.J you live in the U.P I'am sure the season is great. Just a one more week thats all.


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## T.J. (Mar 1, 2009)

oldsalt mi said:


> T.J Indiana does have a teal season if we count that. Ohio has 61 day duck and 16 day teal. Illinois has a teal season. T.J you live in the U.P I'am sure the season is great. Just a one more week thats all.


im all for anouther week. i never even thought about teal seasons. sorry.


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## oldsalt mi (Oct 5, 2010)

T.J. said:


> im all for anouther week. i never even thought about teal seasons. sorry.


 
I should have put up more info the first time.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

When you go to your first meeting do me a favor. 

Slap Joe R for his idea of taking away the Thanksgiving opener of Migrant goose season.  

I would say this alone cost us several hundred hunter days. All the kids are back to school and us dads are too. Would have been nice to have been able to hunt the old "traditional" goose hunt. I hope he had a great hunt. Many of us missed ours. Thank you Joe but you really missed the boat on this idea.


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## road trips (Jan 10, 2008)

I know its been said before but I'll say it agian...We need to be able to hunt later into December on the west side.


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## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

saw more mallards today than the whole rest of the season combined. And I hunt hard, and a lot of different places.

FWIW.


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

bombcast said:


> saw more mallards today than the whole rest of the season combined. And I hunt hard, and a lot of different places.
> 
> FWIW.


 
x2 on that. Been covered up with mallards and geese for about the last week and expect for that trend to continue for about another 3-4 weeks. If you want mallards in SW MI you better hope you're in an area with a lot of local mallards cuz you're not going to have many flight ones around during the season.:rant:


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Huntermax-4 said:


> x2 on that. Been covered up with mallards and geese for about the last week and expect for that trend to continue for about another 3-4 weeks. If you want mallards in SW MI you better hope you're in an area with a lot of local mallards cuz you're not going to have many flight ones around during the season.:rant:


Pretty fair assessment. There are some good flights, but not numbers like what are here in December. Excluding the first week or so of season, of course. Quite a few local birds around this year. 

I'd jump for joy for a mid season 2-3 week split. I can't speak for anyone on the East side because I only hunt there a few times per year, and it's field hunting at that. But, everyone talks about ice-out. All I'm saying is there is more to duck hunting over here than piling into any and all available open water. And I'm not saying water hunting is bad either. There is a ton of nostalgia and history in regards to water hunting. I'm sure for many guys, that's all they do. I'm just saying that a bit of outside the "norm" thinking can get you some unbelievable hunting. 

It would be great if we could exercise our 4 zone option this next season, with a 2-3 week split in the middle as I said earlier. That's my vote. If it happens, that's great. If not, I'm sure the world won't end as we know it. I'll continue to hunt either way. It would just be nice to not be lumped into one area that is so completely different from an East/West standpoint.

Just my .02.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

So the guys that want it to go so much later...How many ducks did ya'll kill the final weekend? I was just curious...I did most of my duck shooting in the month of October and it was VERY good to us, my November was sub-par and despite the mallards being congregated with the freeze, most have hightailed it in the Muskegon area bigtime in the last 4 days.


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## backroadstravler (Jul 12, 2006)

I will make a few comments. To the best of my knowledge Todd has not retired. I will represent Wildlife Unlimited. I will keep an open mind to all posts. Numerous posts on the same subject by the same indivdual does not carry more weight than a single post. I am not a frequent poster on this or any other forum but I do check this and other forums on a daily basis, usually early in the am. I will represent the majority not the loudest. You can pm me if you want, I will also be on MDHA forum.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Unfortunately I haven't been able to hunt over the past week or so due to picking up extra shifts at the hospital. However, I have quite a few fields that are loaded with both ducks and geese right now. It will be like that for the next 2-3 weeks, sometimes longer. It usually is. There is always a steady flow of ducks around here from the first snow fall, all the way through the first few weeks of January, especially in a mild winter. Some of the heavier lake effect snow will probably concentrate them more in a few spots though.


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## smoke (Jun 3, 2006)

> Bout damn time


Typical response to any cwac thread bombcast. Get some new material. There are 20 people on the committee and all vote according to their stakeholders desires. I've been on cwac for > 7 years and I am only one vote as I have stated numerous times before. 

And yes I am done, 8 years is long enough. The spring meeting will be my last as Chairman and rep. Erv will do a great job as a replacement rep. 

I understand that water fowlers are passionate about there sport but all the complaining doesn't do any good. State your desires and opinions and leave it at that. If you knew how many times I have brought up a mid season closure to allow the West side hunters to hunt further into December you'd be shocked. Unless the entire Saginaw bay is moved into zone 2, it ain't gonna happen. 
[/COLOR] 
Todd


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## bombcast (Sep 16, 2003)

"bout damn time" that he's appointed to CWAC, given all the work he's done with the DNR, banding, etc. 

By all accounts Todd, you did a bang-up job, thanks for your efforts on our behalf.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

smoke said:


> Typical response to any cwac thread bombcast. Get some new material. There are 20 people on the committee and all vote according to their stakeholders desires. I've been on cwac for > 7 years and I am only one vote as I have stated numerous times before.
> 
> And yes I am done, 8 years is long enough. The spring meeting will be my last as Chairman and rep. Erv will do a great job as a replacement rep.
> 
> ...




Thanks for your time Todd...its a thankless job and it takes up a lot of personal time to do it. Its appreciated.


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## oldsalt mi (Oct 5, 2010)

BigR said:


> So the guys that want it to go so much later...How many ducks did ya'll kill the final weekend? I was just curious...I did most of my duck shooting in the month of October and it was VERY good to us, my November was sub-par and despite the mallards being congregated with the freeze, most have hightailed it in the Muskegon area bigtime in the last 4 days.


We kill most of are duck in mid Nov tell the end on the westside. In Oct we have a two too three week low every year. I hunt in land form you and a bit more south. And I do hunt hard. I think goose season is ok all but the week shut down during deer. But this state loves their deer. I speak only for myself.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

Two different fields, 60 miles apart in the SW this weekend and a total of 5,000+ mallards and a few blacks seen working fields within sight. That is a very conservative number. That blows the arguments about 'no hunting pressure so you see ducks in December' because season is still open. It blows the 'limited water open so you see them bunched up' because ducks were coming from everywhere. There is all kinds of open water in SW michigan through December every year.

Hunting the last two weeks of October is a waste of time unless you want to shoot a couple teal and woodies. But you can get that fix the first two weeks of season. Run the season first Saturday of October for two weeks. Close it down. Re-open the season the last weekend in October straight through for the rest of the 60 days. Give up the 2 day split in Jan. Mallards do not show up until late November every single year. Between two afternoon field hunts, the number of ducks and geese seen by our group was 15,000+. Easily. There is no reason duck should be closing here, and no reason goose should be 2 per man. I'm not even going to waste the time field hunting geese only for 2 a guy. This next part of goose only season is a waste. If it is going to be 2 per guy, run it concurrent with duck season.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

IMO, seasons are fine the way it is. I'm fine working through the years when mother nature throws a curve.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Putting "All" of Saginaw bay in zone two is just not right. There is a big difference between west and east Saginaw Bay. There's tons of ducks and geese here now, if it were closed like zone 2 is we miss out.
I agree something needs to be done for the guys down south/southwest.

I think, we really should take a hard look at 4 zones. I think ? KLR had a 4 zone proposal the last time this thread got started, and if I remember
correctly it was pretty good. Split the Saginaw Bay at the mouth of the 
Saginaw river. West zone 2..... East zone 3 then make a dividing line for zone 4.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> IMO, seasons are fine the way it is. I'm fine working through the years when mother nature throws a curve.


 
No truer words have been spoken...I whole-heartedly agree.

Only way I would ever vote to give up the end of October is if we have a designated early wood-duck/teal season, until then...nope. If the end of October was closed this year, I would've missed out on several good shoots.

Some care and some don't, but if we go to 4 zones, there is NO split and we are stuck with that framework for several years, as well as a good chance of never getting our original framework back...so be careful what you wish for.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

TSS Caddis said:


> IMO, seasons are fine the way it is. I'm fine working through the years when mother nature throws a curve.


Except mother nature isn't throwing a curve. It is every year, last weekend of Nov. flight mallards show up in force for the SW and continually build up until season closes. Just an extra 10 days or so (with 2 weekends) would be money for the SW.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

Ieatantlers said:


> Except mother nature isn't throwing a curve. It is every year, last weekend of Nov. flight mallards show up in force for the SW and continually build up until season closes. Just an extra 10 days or so (with 2 weekends) would be money for the SW.


When you say SW...define what you mean by SW. By either major roadway or county to county...Not trying to argue, because I could careless, I'm just curious.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Ieatantlers said:


> Except mother nature isn't throwing a curve. It is every year, last weekend of Nov. flight mallards show up in force for the SW and continually build up until season closes. Just an extra 10 days or so (with 2 weekends) would be money for the SW.


I guess that brings up the question on what is the DNR's goal for the Michigan duck season? Hunter hours or Harvest?

IMO, if the goal is hunter hours, I think that has been stated before, then going an extra 10 days to accomodate let's say 5% of the hunters isn't going to fly. Probably even then if the goal is Harvest, if you have 20x more hunters in the field earlier in the year, even if each only shoots 1/2 the birds than a hunter would with extra days, it is still a larger harvest.

I understand what you are saying, there are many niche's where people could use a longer season. Heck I could have been in the U.P. hunting this weekend and limiting if it was open. No ice on the Bay yet, so I could really use another couple weeks there also, but the number of vehicles at the launch would be 5% of what they are earlier in the year. I could use a sea duck only season for the next 2 weeks also since our old squaw just showed up in force last week. That would not serve the majority though. I don't doubt you have birds, I think they are just doing the best they can to accomodate the majority of hunters wishes.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

BigR said:


> No truer words have been spoken...I whole-heartedly agree.
> 
> Only way I would ever vote to give up the end of October is if we have a designated early wood-duck/teal season, until then...nope. If the end of October was closed this year, I would've missed out on several good shoots.
> 
> Some care and some don't, but if we go to 4 zones, there is NO split and we are stuck with that framework for several years, as well as a good chance of never getting our original framework back...so be careful what you wish for.


I agree with you and TSS.. I am on the West side north of you guys but the end of Oct is just as good as the rest of the season and last year this time frame resulted in our biggest push Also hunt quite a bit south on the west side with some friends as well and we have never had a problem gettin in on some big field mallard shoots during this time frame..


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

BigR said:


> When you say SW...define what you mean by SW. By either major roadway or county to county...Not trying to argue, because I could careless, I'm just curious.


I hunt Clinton, Barry, Ionia, Eaton counties usually.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

TSS Caddis said:


> .... but the number of vehicles at the launch would be 5% of what they are earlier in the year.


Good. Let the ninnies stay at home. 

Fairweather jean hunters get early goose season... Let the die hard real hunters get the best part of the migration.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

pikenetter said:


> you give me $20,000 grand for materials and i'll build ten weirs in the muskegon marsh that will stay flooded year around and provide breeding habitat that has been lacking for 15 years now. we do not need multimillion dollar projects to improve habitat!! that is the problem with beuacracy they only think big is better, same goes for the grand river a couple of well palced weirs would provide substanial nest and foraging areas.
> 
> these are the things that beavers used to do for us naturally and free!!


No doubt. Get the grand and muskegon marshes flooded up good and there could be some exceptional hunting out here. My grandpa always talks about a marsh that i will not mention the name of, that USED to get 1000s of ducks in it. Its pretty much dry now. I cant imagine how much better it would be here with substancial flooding in the marshes.


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## pikenetter (Mar 28, 2009)

BigR said:


> See Above Post---
> 
> and breeding isn't the issue in the marsh. Shiawassee doesn't kill more ducks than us because they produce more ducks...There are PLENTY of breeding ducks in West Michigan. You want to increase duck production, How many hen houses or wood duck boxes do you have out?
> 
> ...


 
your about the biggest know it all on this site, if you have such brillance between ears then you fix the marsh!! i see you critisize but never offer any ideas for improvement:rant: 


but i know i could construct some small wiers that would keep ten acre areas flooded year around and when the water rises it will just flow right over them.


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## duckhunter382 (Feb 13, 2005)

pikenetter said:


> if we can seprate the state into time zones for shooting hours, why can't we seperate the state into zones for hunting periiods?
> 
> the last time zone(west side) just does not get birds, puddlers or divers until cold weather arrives and pushes them down.
> 
> ...


Why not get a bunch of people to volunteer and donate as opposed to a tax that will get spent on 100 dollar hammers and high union bids? I dont see how an increase in state stamp will help when the state wastes money the way they do. What projects could we get going on this site? we could set an example and get started. I know this site can raise money being as I fish the dreamweaver and see what happens when we all get together.


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

BigR said:


> When you say SW...define what you mean by SW. By either major roadway or county to county...Not trying to argue, because I could careless, I'm just curious.


 
I do most of my hunting in Allegan/Ottawa/Van Buren and Kalamazoo counties. I can say without a doubt that there are more birds here now(ducks and geese) than at any time of the season so far. From Thanksgiving until about Christmas(some years a little later) is when the flights of mallards seem to roll through this area. You won't here me complain too much about goose season for the sole reason of there are always geese around to chase. Not so with ducks. Big mallard shoots in Oct. are pretty rare in SW MI. It happens, but not very often.


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## duckhunter382 (Feb 13, 2005)

quackersmacker13 said:


> No doubt. Get the grand and muskegon marshes flooded up good and there could be some exceptional hunting out here. My grandpa always talks about a marsh that i will not mention the name of, that USED to get 1000s of ducks in it. Its pretty much dry now. I cant imagine how much better it would be here with substancial flooding in the marshes.


remove hardy annd croton and i bet muskegon would be great.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Huntermax-4 said:


> I do most of my hunting in Allegan/Ottawa/Van Buren and Kalamazoo counties. I can say without a doubt that there are more birds here now(ducks and geese) than at any time of the season so far. From Thanksgiving until about Christmas(some years a little later) is when the flights of mallards seem to roll through this area. You won't here me complain too much about goose season for the sole reason of there are always geese around to chase. Not so with ducks. Big mallard shoots in Oct. are pretty rare in SW MI. It happens, but not very often.


agreed about goose season, but i think we should be allowed to shoot at least 3 geese a day in our area. like you said they are EVERYWERE


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## Big Honkers (Dec 20, 2008)

Mike L said:


> gonna be at least 5 pages..........




Ding, Ding, Ding.

We have a winner!


...or maybe weener in Mikes case.


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

Big Honkers said:


> Ding, Ding, Ding.
> 
> We have a winner!
> 
> ...


......lol Big smile when it hit 5.......won't make ten, guys are starting to get
riled up a bit. Once the constructive discussion ends she's all done.......


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## waxico (Jan 21, 2008)

I am happy with the way things are, and appreciative for my continued hunting priveleges.

Keep up the good work, and thank you for volunteering your time.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Mike L said:


> ......lol Big smile when it hit 5.......won't make ten, guys are starting to get
> riled up a bit. Once the constructive discussion ends she's all done.......


yeah but branta just took off on flight and not sure how much cwc is watching...this may get to 10 real fast


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## road trips (Jan 10, 2008)

If this makes any sense.
Right now you could hunt 67 days in Michigan if you want to by hunting both north and south zones.
If the south zone has a split early-mid season or when ever,just go to a different zone to hunt if you want.This could turn your 67 days into who knows,maybe 80 days.
Not to mention helping the economy with out of town tourist dollars.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

pikenetter said:


> your about the biggest know it all on this site, if you have such brillance between ears then you fix the marsh!! i see you critisize but never offer any ideas for improvement:rant:
> 
> 
> but i know i could construct some small wiers that would keep ten acre areas flooded year around and when the water rises it will just flow right over them.


 
Well, you know, since I joined the site, all you do is get on here and bitch about whats not getting done and yet you do nothing either or to cyber scout. How's that westside waterfowl club going that you were going to start? Remember all the bashing you did about how "knowone does anything locally". Well at last count we have about 75 hen houses up, I couldn't count the number of wood duck boxes, how about the several hundred kids we have reached out to at our youth days, the seed purchased for the DNR for nesting areas, or the lighting at the Giles and Creston boat launch. 

Myself and several others offered up several ideas a year to a year and a half ago, as well as several examples of DEDICATED individuals who are trying to do good for West Michigan outside of this BS forum. You obviously don't spend much time in the marsh or anywhere else...sorry to call you out, but when you are crying there are no ducks, there are ducks everywhere....when you are saying how bad it is here or there, there are people piling the ducks like cordwood and when you say the Muskegon River needs wiers, I can remember and have heard the stories of the years of the water so high you could literally boat ANYWHERE. 

Let's look at some reasons West Michigan has changed for the last 30 years...
1. Development/destruction of Wetlands, all human caused
2. Construction of the Muskegon Waste Water, argue it as you may, but it holds more birds than anywhere else on the West Side outside of the Todd Farm and it didn't exists until the late 70's, much after the good ol' days.
3. Depletion and disappearance of the hemi-marsh between black and mosquito creeks that was altered when the Muskegon Waste Water's pipeline was re-routed from Mosquito creek to the Muskegon River, essentially changing an ENTIRE ecosystem.
4. Supression of fire in both the Grand and Muskegon...Fire is one of the best tools for wetland management, some areas are burned purposely, but more often than not most fires are extinguished due to human safety.

So how many wood duck/mallard hen houses did you put up? I'm still waiting on that one....

As I was asking in several posts, "what is considered SW Michigan" to most...what defines it, where are people saying the birds aren't coming through till late, in hopes that maybe we can find some trends latitudinally that would result in maybe a potential shift of dates or zones for the better. Here I thought one guy only hunted the far SW and he hunted more of what I consider South Central and another guy thought I hunted the Middle South split...So with that said, its steps to maybe better understand each other. Setting vertical zones won't do anything, you're gonna have the same freeze at Ludington as you are Baldwin, but you sure as hell aren't Ludington versus Grand Haven.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

road trips said:


> If this makes any sense.
> Right now you could hunt 67 days in Michigan if you want to by hunting both north and south zones.
> If the south zone has a split early-mid season or when ever,just go to a different zone to hunt if you want.This could turn your 67 days into who knows,maybe 80 days.
> Not to mention helping the economy with out of town tourist dollars.


 
I've thought this before too RT, I wonder where the line could be drawn West to East, 94 southward, 96 Southward, state bordering counties?

If we got to 4 zones we lose the capability to split at all, so it would have to be darn clever.

My thought is this too...If we could get a Teal/Wood Duck Season, run that early on (which are bonus days that don't count towards ANY total) and then we could have a quiet period, open again in October for the normal opener, BUT, a week later than normal, run it 58 straight days, shutdown and reopen for the 2 day late.

and to keep the folks happy too, consider moving goose back to its original run side by side with duck.

That way we would have Early Goose Sep.1-15th
Woodie/Teal Sep. 16th-end of month potentially or 10 days, not sure how that works

Open 3rd Saturday of October

Close one week later than this year...

reopen for 2 day.

That way we don't lose our zones and don't lose our split...at least thats how I see it in a perfect world


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

BigR said:


> I've thought this before too RT, I wonder where the line could be drawn West to East, 94 southward, 96 Southward, state bordering counties?
> 
> If we got to 4 zones we lose the capability to split at all, so it would have to be darn clever.
> 
> ...


this is the best solution to keep everyone happy in all zones as they sit. push for an early woodduck/teal season and we would be in business.


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

BigR said:


> I've thought this before too RT, I wonder where the line could be drawn West to East, 94 southward, 96 Southward, state bordering counties?
> 
> If we got to 4 zones we lose the capability to split at all, so it would have to be darn clever.
> 
> ...


It's not perfect, but I could work with it. I still think that the late 2 day is a waste of a split. Granted, we usually do real well on those 2 days, but I still think our split could be put to better use.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think an early teal/woodie season was even an option for MI?

I still think that if we were allowed an early season that it would be best to excercise our 4th zone option and do away with the split. If we could have a teal/woodie season the end of Sept./early Oct., then open the regular the end of Oct. and run it out 60 days.....now that's how I would see it in a perfect world. (For zone 4, SW MI.)


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

maybe start reg season 2 weeks later? seems like there are stale birds in the Grand Haven area for a good month or more, then again starting 2 weeks later may screw you guys up at SRSGA, FP, NQP, etc. And dont forget my favorite season, Late Goose!


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

Huntermax-4 said:


> It's not perfect, but I could work with it. I still think that the late 2 day is a waste of a split. Granted, we usually do real well on those 2 days, but I still think our split could be put to better use.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think an early teal/woodie season was even an option for MI?
> 
> I still think that if we were allowed an early season that it would be best to excercise our 4th zone option and do away with the split. If we could have a teal/woodie season the end of Sept./early Oct., then open the regular the end of Oct. and run it out 60 days.....now that's how I would see it in a perfect world. (For zone 4, SW MI.)


Early teal for sure, Wood duck, I'm not 100% on, but generally in production states it is included if I'm not mistaken.

I agree it could be an option, I just wonder where you would draw the zone lines is the biggest thing, west to east, north to south, etc.

I keep trying to think of when you could close for a week and then re-open for a week later sort of thing, but I cant think of when an exact week closer would be that would not hurt us:sad:


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## anon2192012 (Jul 27, 2008)

I believe someone else mentioned this before, but my feelings towards it are the same too. With the 2 bag limit on geese this time of year it is a lot of work to set up a field spread for just the geese with no option of taking ducks too. Most of the fields that we hunt will have both working this time of year which makes the effort more worthwhile. If geese are all that's open, I'll still be out there getting after them, but I know guys that won't be because of the work that is involved for just their 2 geese.

Up the bag limit(not likely) or run it concurrent with duck season again.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

the goose bag limit is our of the State's, cwac's, dnr's hands...the Feds tell us what we have, but we could try and tailor both to be open concurrently better, but sad to say, I think there always has to come a point when you can't have the best of both worlds and only one will be open


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## Angeloboot (Oct 13, 2009)

As a new hunter, I had no idea this much thought at the local level went into things--all the vitriol aside, it's really cool and informative to see the discussion happen. This might be a bit off topic, but this thread and the hunting literature leave one with 2 very big questions:
1. There is a huge mythology attached to "weather to kill a man is weather to kill a duck." I.E., it seems duck hunters love the rain/sleet/wind/gray fun stuff. Why do we start so early when the weather is just getting interesting in late Nov?

2. Two or three weeks ago there was a thread where some knowledgeable folks agreed the "peak migration" had already passed. So why does it seems that in the past 2 weeks the number of pics of limit hunts and quality outings has increased? Also, if right now a lot of people are concerned about freeze-out, why 2 days in January? Jus' sayin, these are the things myself and a couple new hunters I know are scratching our heads about.

Thanks to those who so far have brought up issues of local work and volunteerism. This board has helped to bring in myself and 2 friends this year--we're blue collar dudes, so we're not bringing in big money to the sport or anything, but we add to the coffee economy every morning, help out, clean up the area every time we go out, and try to be friendly to everyone we encounter. If anyone needs some labor come spring, I'd love to build some wood duck boxes/etc.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Shoveler said:


> Fed's are allowing zone changes.
> 
> www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344288&highlight=cwac


yeah, i'm aware. theres a huge thread on here somewhere about it where we hashed it out pretty good. There is some drawbacks to switching up our zones...although the revert option now makes it more doable.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

wavie said:


> Care to share this with the rest of us?


Sure thing. Here's the link to the detailed thread. Plenty of good supporting facts/figures that I came up with. 

http://www.midha.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3394


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

BigR said:


> I just don't get why people don't value duck A. versus duck B. when Michigan is like the wal-mart of producing wood ducks....my guess its the same people who call canada geese "flying carp" and have no respect for them either as an animal.http://madduck.org/article/dead-duck


For me, and I think a lot of people, as a bird gets more common, its 'value' decreases. I can go to any flooded timber hole in early October and shoot 3 wood ducks. Some nice drakes I'm sure. But they are a dime a dozen. When we start getting in full plume big flight birds- which is pretty rare in our area because it is a short window before season closes- is when I get excited. This time of year its about like this:

1. bull pinner
2. blacks
3. big fat mallards

This is the best time of the year to pick those birds off in full plumage and they are the highest 'value' for me. 

As far as geese being flying carp, that is a whole different story. I hate those suckers. They are everywhere. Loud, crapping everywhere, piss me off on a golf course, crapping everywhere, ugly, crapping everywhere, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love killing them. Just because I got to wipe one more off of this earth. Plus, if we got a little more of a variety of species (snows, blues, specks, etc.) it would be more fun. 

That is just my opinion, cause you asked, and I can only speak for myself.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

wavie said:


> As BigR said, how do you really know these are migrant birds..


IMO, they are birds 'migrating' from the east side. The west side seems to have more open water, and the fields are fresh. For whatever reason, they favor the west side late in the year. I don't really care where they migrated from (North, East, West) I just care that they are here, now.


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## pikenetter (Mar 28, 2009)

here is different philosophy on the fair weather vs cold weather hunter.

when the new waterfowl catalogs(cabels,and suc) arrive in the summer, how many of of look through them and say i need to order that camo tshirt or light camo pants. not many i'm sure.

most of us look at the new bibs and parkas, hats and gloves and anything else that can keep us dry and warm. why, because duck hunting is truly more fun to do when the conditions out side are nasty.

take the weather sunday for instance. here in muskegon it blowing snow sideways and 2 to 3 footers on the lake. the ramps were full and shooting was coming from all sides of the lake. why, the weather nasty, the migraters are here and that means Duck Hunting!!

50 degrees and sunny means the springer and the double barrel for some upland game.

for those of you who say we don't scout enough for fields are full of it, most of the good farms with in any good drive of muskegon are leased out now, have been to may diffrent farms in the past and have told the same guy hunts here even though the field has not had anyone in it for two years. guys with the moola have the advantage in that situation. the big buck industry has also ruined alot of hunting permission also.

riparian rights law needs to revisted, it really makes no sense to me, on why you can fish 50ftoff some ones dock but can't hunt or trap 50ft off of it?


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

pikenetter said:


> riparian rights law needs to revisted, it really makes no sense to me, on why you can fish 50ftoff some ones dock but can't hunt or trap 50ft off of it?


Because if a person wants to hunt on their own shore that they paid for, they shouldn't have to worry about getting there at 2 a.m. to beat the crowd. People shouldn't get free reign over all water- for free. Or for $40 of licenses. Tell the guy that is paying $3000 in taxes for a year alone on his property that he can't hunt on his own shoreline because a guy was parked 5 feet in the water at midnight the night before. B.S.

And clearly, fishing is not like hunting. You can ice fish 10 feet from a person and both be doing fine. You can't exactly hunt 10 feet from someone and say it isn't affecting them.

People need to revisit the sense of entitlement (I should be able to hunt where I want)- not the riparian laws. But that is for a whole different thread.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

field-n-feathers said:


> Sure thing. Here's the link to the detailed thread. Plenty of good supporting facts/figures that I came up with.
> 
> http://www.midha.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3394


Do you have a direct link to the USGS for the info you obtained, not that i dont believe you but i would like to see for myself.

Much appreciated.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

I talked to a kid at the waste water 3rd week of October who shot a Mallard that was banded in Thunder bay Ontario this spring...must have been a fluke!? I'd be REAL anxious to see the hardcore banding data.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> IMO, they are birds 'migrating' from the east side. The west side seems to have more open water, and the fields are fresh. For whatever reason, they favor the west side late in the year. I don't really care where they migrated from (North, East, West) I just care that they are here, now.


As my grandfather says, opinions are like ********, everyone has got one. How do you know they "migrated". You stated there were still tonnes of birds on the east side but people were too lazy to scout, why would they fly back to the west side with no pressure and plenty of food? There is still plenty of open water on the east side and what do you mean fresh fields on the west side? 

What if all those birds you see later in the year are still GL mallards which already get the snot pounded out of them. Heck, those mallard returns from thunder bay could be GL mallards molting up there, unless they are all first year hatch birds. Would it be wise continuing to deplete our "local birds".

Ieatantlers i respect your opinion, just want clear cut scientific evidence that having the west side bang at birds later in the year would not be hurting the resource.

Man, this may get to 10 pages before branta sees this.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

wavie said:


> As BigR said, how do you really know these are migrant birds.


Red Legs....

Gotta agree with the WS boys.. Every year I get drug down to the Grandville mall in the middle of Dec and the ditch out front is full of big red legged mallards.. :lol:


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

wavie said:


> As my grandfather says, opinions are like ********, everyone has got one. How do you know they "migrated". You stated there were still tonnes of birds on the east side but people were too lazy to scout, why would they fly back to the west side with no pressure and plenty of food? There is still plenty of open water on the east side and what do you mean fresh fields on the west side?
> 
> What if all those birds you see later in the year are still GL mallards which already get the snot pounded out of them. Heck, those mallard returns from thunder bay could be GL mallards molting up there, unless they are all first year hatch birds. Would it be wise continuing to deplete our "local birds".
> 
> ...


'Migrating' is just a term for a group movement of birds. Like I said, I don't care if they are migrating from the East, West or North- they weren't here 3 weeks ago, so they must have 'migrated' from somewhere. And, again IMO, a lot of those birds on the east side now, will eventually come to the west side once the shallower saginaw bay starts to freeze. There is still enough open water to keep them there, now, but not for too long. The west side just seems to have more open water late into the year. That is why I'd like our season to still be running for the next 2 weeks on the west side.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

http://www.flyways.us/surveys-and-monitoring/banding-and-marking-programs/bands-across-america

You can add up numbers until your blue in the face. It probably took me 4 hours the last time I came up with those numbers. I glanced at it quickly for the 2009 season as well. It looks to be a bit more evenly distributed, but it's still approximately 60% of harvest in November and later. And quite a few guys have said how early the migration was last year, so take that for what it's worth.


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

wavie said:


> Care to share this with the rest of us? Not trying to stir the pot but i would really like to see that data to support the west side argument. Personal observations dont hold much merit w/o scientific data. As BigR said, how do you really know these are migrant birds.


I posted this a couple weeks ago, not sure if this is scientific enough for you, but this information is from the DNR waterfowl counts that are posted online. These numbers are from the 2009-2010 season:

Managed Area / Peak Mallard count / Date
MWW / 2500 / 11/23
Allegan / 6000 / 12/14
Nyanquin Point / 3600 / 10/26
Shiawassee / 7500 / 11/2
Fish Point / 11,000 / 10/12 & 10/19
Harsen's Island / 23,000 / 10/26


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

wavie said:


> Man, this may get to 10 pages before branta sees this.


As long as we keep it civil, I don't think it will matter if it goes 100 pages.


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## TNL (Jan 6, 2005)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> yep and the dates are configured to appease the most people they can. until the federal framework allows for more zones.....or sag bay gets bumped up to zone 2....this IS the best framework if we refuse to give up the january split.
> 
> easiest solution is to dump the january split. open Sept 25th for a week and shut down to re-open on the 3rd saturday in october. continue season 2 weeks into december.
> 
> too many cry when that january split comes onto the chopping block.


Never work. Too simple. Too logical. :coolgleam


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Red Legs....


The mallards I raised this summer had bright red legs. That was one hell of a trip to Canada and back in one night.


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## DEDGOOSE (Jan 19, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> The mallards I raised this summer had bright red legs. That was one hell of a trip to Canada and back in one night.


Simple, the eggs you got were from a breeding pair of mallards from Canada


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Here&#8217;s my .02 worth for consideration for when discussions start about zone changes.

A. Any discussions should have base datasets to help frame the discussions. These datasets ought to include &#8211; at a minimum &#8211; the following:

1) State harvest data per county
2) State harvest data per date
3) State harvest data per species
4) State harvest date per species/county/date
5) Fed harvest data per county
6) Fed harvest data per date
7) Fed harvest data per species
8) Fed harvest date per species/county/date
9)  State managed unit harvest data (for unit/species/date)
10)  Average Ice freeze ups (see Luukkonen&#8217;s map on this)
11)  Average precipitation for each county by month of September through December
12)  Known average migration dates per species (if known from other datasets than the ones listed)
13)  Origin of harvested birds, by species/date of harvest/county of harvest
14)  State surveys on hunter satisfaction
15)  Fed surveys on hunter satisfaction (as it pertains to waterfowl hunters hunting Michigan) 
16)  License sales data
17)  Ratio of state land to private land used for waterfowl (if known or possibly guessed)
18)  Projected changes (probably based on regression analysis) in average freeze up dates for duration of proposed zone changes 
19)  Changes in wetlands (i.e., loss) in each county for each proposed zone 

B. A frequency distribution of at least the prior 30 years (when this is available based on dataset);
C. We need to determine average migration pattern for proposed zones (see above datasets on harvest location and species). 
D. Any discussions ought to include any planned wetland rehabilitation projects in Michigan and in the Great Lakes region. 

I'm sure there's more date and/or issues to factor in.  :yikes:


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

So, in other words, we need to over-complicate this discussion as well?


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## waterfowlhunter83 (Aug 10, 2005)

DEDGOOSE said:


> Red Legs....
> 
> Gotta agree with the WS boys.. Every year I get drug down to the Grandville mall in the middle of Dec and the ditch out front is full of big red legged mallards.. :lol:


RED LEGS...BWAAAAAHHHHHAAAA!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

field-n-feathers said:


> Well, it sounds like you have it all figured out then. Good luck in the late season.


 
Not at all saying I have it "all figured out", just merely saying how I see it and my opinion.....as someone said, Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one.

Its no different than some of the old posts I took the time to read through on here and another forum last night leading into the openers..."oh man there are birds everywhere"...then it all goes silent by the next weekend...those local birds didn't migrate out, they just stay hidden out of harm's way. Myself and a few friends were fortunate enough to discover one of these hiding spots. We were smart and hunted it once a week and the rewards were endless. As the reports 3 miles away were no birds, we were melting barrels.

Good luck to you too on late season, either we will shoot a pile of greenheads or not, its never been in between, just depends on what ol' ma nature does between now and then.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> its not a derail. if we were ever to get cut to 45 or 30...you could revert. Since seasons are not set until we get federal consensus and seasons....this possibility is very viable.


 
I was told you are stuck with whatever you select. If the feds say we have 45 days and a 4 duck limit, then with 4 zones, we pick when we want opening day and it runs 45 days and thats it. So either we open as usual and end so early that the leaves haven't hardly fallen off or we open so late that we miss a huge portion of migrants and local wood ducks mallards and teal potentially.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

BigR said:


> I guarantee if we shut down in the so-called "lull" times, that guys would STILL complain to no end. "we're shut down and covered with birds". "damn cwac, who closes us the last week of October". When in reality the birds aren't being shot off the roost, busted out of their refuges, pressured 7 days a week in public spots, and skybusted at like crazy, but it will be perceived as "the birds showed up early". We run until December 31st, my prediction is by December 15th, the birds have had the snot pounded out of them so bad from being congregated and congregating hunters, that you don't see a bird the last 2 weeks of the season. January 5th I call a post saying, "we need another week, we are covered in birds right now".


That has always been the argument by a lot of guys. "You see birds in December because season is closed" Season was open this weekend, and the week before- and we were covered with birds. Plus, you have said yourself that we would lose hunter numbers in December (which I whole heartedly agree on)- so the immense pressure you are describing just wouldn't be there. It would be the season to separate the men from the boys with hyphenated last names.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

If with 4 zones we lose the split, and our split can change from year to year. I'd vote, no 4 zones and keep the split for reasons mentioned earlier.

If you get a 3/30 again, at least you could run for a week, close for a couple weeks and open back up for 3 more weeks. The old 30 day sucked and it would be nice to have options available.

Standard risk mitigation. Doesn't make everyone happy, but they would sure be happy if we needed the split due to a shortened season.

The option I've stated before, open Oct 10 for a week, close a week and then open it back up.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Ieatantlers said:


> It would be the season to separate the men from the boys with hyphenated last names.


:lol: i agree. if opener was later we wouldnt have so many fair weather duck hunters that flat out dont know what they are doing.


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## carsonr2 (Jan 15, 2009)

TSS Caddis said:


> If with 4 zones we lose the split, and our split can change from year to year. I'd vote, no 4 zones and keep the split for reasons mentioned earlier.
> 
> If you get a 3/30 again, at least you could run for a week, close for a couple weeks and open back up for 3 more weeks. The old 30 day sucked and it would be nice to have options available.
> 
> ...



I think that it needs to be cleared up whether or not the State can revert back to previous zones and splits before this argument has any merit.

The Kid says the State can revert back and BigR says the State can't revert back......who knows which answer is correct?

If the State can revert back, since the feds issue there outlined broad season framework before seasons are set by the State I think the 4 Zone option is truly viable.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

quackersmacker13 said:


> :lol: i agree. if opener was later we wouldnt have so many fair weather duck hunters that flat out dont know what they are doing.


I think keep it earlier. While the "hard core" hunters are still golfing, and waiting for their "hard core" weather, the "all season" hunter can kill birds all October.:lol:


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Water_Hazard said:


> I think keep it earlier. While the "hard core" hunters are still golfing, and waiting for their "hard core" weather, the "all season" hunter can kill birds all October.:lol:


all we have in october around here are wood ducks galore for a month in october usually, but the past two years they have been bugging out early because of cold snaps the first week or two of season. Then we get to hunt stale locals most of the season. Welcome to West Michigan. The only thing we have going for us are the wood ducks, which i love hunting, but they have been leaving early. Also we have geese which i also love hunting (but keep wishing for a higher limit. SOOO MANY OUT HERE).


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

Water_Hazard said:


> I think keep it earlier. While the "hard core" hunters are still golfing, and waiting for their "hard core" weather, the "all season" hunter can kill birds all October.:lol:


 
hahahah, don't forget bridal showers, couples weekends, anniversarys, and weddings to top the list of the hardcore hunters chores.:lol: I actually hate the term "hardcore" in any sense of the outdoors. It takes FAR more effort for the guy in late October who owns no boat or dog to slog through a marsh for a mile or two to kill a few ducks versus the guy who launches his boat and motors it out to his spot or drives his rig across a field, just because its 20 degrees out doesn't spell better or more success in my book.


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## Dahmer (Jan 22, 2007)

Keep the 3 zones. Redraw the boundries. Put the U.P. and half of the northern lower into zone 1, the other half of the northern lower and a portion of the southern lower into zone 2 and the rest of the southern lower into zone 3.


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## Water_Hazard (Aug 16, 2006)

quackersmacker13 said:


> all we have in october around here are wood ducks galore for a month in october usually, but the past two years they have been bugging out early because of cold snaps the first week or two of season. Then we get to hunt stale locals most of the season. Welcome to West Michigan. The only thing we have going for us are the wood ducks, which i love hunting, but they have been leaving early. Also we have geese which i also love hunting (but keep wishing for a higher limit. SOOO MANY OUT HERE).


I don't really head west to hunt, but am still in the same zone. The area that I hunt would be best with an early opener. I feel for you guys on the west side, especially representing a minority of the zone as a whole. Like stated earlier, the birds that are showing up right now would be stale as well if hunted the next week straight.


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## anon12162011 (Jun 9, 2009)

Dahmer said:


> Keep the 3 zones. Redraw the boundries. Put the U.P. and half of the northern lower into zone 1, the other half of the northern lower and a portion of the southern lower into zone 2 and the rest of the southern lower into zone 3.


 
Would sag bay fall into Zone 2 or 3?:evilsmile


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## smiley1544 (Oct 18, 2002)

quackersmacker13 said:


> all we have in october around here are wood ducks galore for a month in october usually, but the past two years they have been bugging out early because of cold snaps the first week or two of season. Then we get to hunt stale locals most of the season. Welcome to West Michigan. The only thing we have going for us are the wood ducks, which i love hunting, but they have been leaving early. Also we have geese which i also love hunting (but keep wishing for a higher limit. SOOO MANY OUT HERE).


For the most part that is true, but in Muskegon we usually see a good increase in mallards the last week of oct. and they usually keep growing in numbers untill the second week of Nov.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Water_Hazard said:


> I think keep it earlier. While the "hard core" hunters are still golfing, and waiting for their "hard core" weather, the "all season" hunter can kill birds all October.:lol:


More efficient to start in June and collect eggs. Easier to just make duck omelets over jerky.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

BigR said:


> Would sag bay fall into Zone 2 or 3?:evilsmile


Zone 2, but it would have the same dates as the current zone 3. Hell, keep the zones we have, move Sag Bay to Zone 2 and start Zone 2 a week later than usual.

With anything, if an option means we lose our ability to apply a split, it should be off the table.


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## Dahmer (Jan 22, 2007)

BigR said:


> Would sag bay fall into Zone 2 or 3?:evilsmile


 

Saginaw Bay would be zone 2. Open date be the 2nd weekend in October

Zone 3 - Open date last weekend in October.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

TSS Caddis said:


> If with 4 zones we lose the split, and our split can change from year to year. I'd vote, no 4 zones and keep the split for reasons mentioned earlier.
> 
> If you get a 3/30 again, at least you could run for a week, close for a couple weeks and open back up for 3 more weeks. The old 30 day sucked and it would be nice to have options available.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are old enough to have hunted a 30 day season.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

smiley1544 said:


> For the most part that is true, but in Muskegon we usually see a good increase in mallards the last week of oct. and they usually keep growing in numbers untill the second week of Nov.


we only had 1 really good day in muskegon this year and it was debatable if we were even going to launch bc of the wind and waves. That was on the lake. Out small water spots were crap this year in muskegon due to unbeleivably low marsh levels.


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## smiley1544 (Oct 18, 2002)

quackersmacker13 said:


> we only had 1 really good day in muskegon this year and it was debatable if we were even going to launch bc of the wind and waves. That was on the lake. Out small water spots were crap this year in muskegon due to unbeleivably low marsh levels.


If you are only considering the marsh, the I agree. There are plenty of other spots in Muskegon that had good water.


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Data about when, where, and what was harvested is in the hands of the feds based on wings/feather collections. Those of us who have done this or are doing this know they have this data. Someone - preferably Dave L from DNR - can get that data for as many years prior as they have. 

Band recovery data is also available. Obviously, this tells us from where the bird came, species, and where and when it was harvested. Again, someone - preferably Dave L from DNR - can get that data for as many years prior as they have.


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

_Keep the 3 zones. Redraw the boundries. Put the U.P. and half of the northern lower into zone 1, the other half of the northern lower and a portion of the southern lower into zone 2 and the rest of the southern lower into zone 3. _

Changing zone boundaries IS changing the zones. In this case, it's not the number of zones, but the county count within the zones that matters. We do this and we lose the splitting option - as I best recall from Dave L during last and prior years CWAC meetings.


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## Bellyup (Nov 13, 2007)

It seems like there is no answer, just a small handfull of dedicated waterfowlers who have experience. Why is that experience so discounted as to when seasons should be set ? Is the band data, etc collected that much better than actually being out there day after day watching the sky ? I think that hunters opinions should be valued by policy makers, not discounted and tossed over the shoulder becasue some college boy did a quick count from the air and ran a formula to estimate the number of birds. We are the ones that protect our resource the best, not the policy makers. We have more time to dedicate to our cause than policy makers. 

Here is my take once again. From the years and years and years and years and years of hunting ducks I notice a serious increase in the number of birds in my area. The season dates have never in my hunting career stayed open to when I begin seeing the magic flights of mallards, and divers. Is my area that different ? How can Calhoun county be that different than others in the same zone ? Yet I hear year after year that Lansing sees flights in October, etc, Muskegon does too. I am 45 minutes from Lansing..... So with this data, it would best benefit the Calhoun county and surrounding counties to run longer into December. But not Lansing..... hmmm. That means 4 zones to me to keep those guys happy too. I don't want others to lose hunting days in other areas. It seems to be the only way that we might get additional days in December. I am open to any alternative that would allow hunting for my area into December week 3. I am not saying 4 zones is the right answer, but so far it is the only fair one I can see. I don't see CWAC or the DNR or the season date setters closing down any zone for a couple weeks so we can gain two more into December. It has been an option for many years, and never done. So why would I hold my breath now ? 

This whole deal is frustrating as hell. I keep seeing people posting up pics of mallard limits all season long. I would like that same chance without traveling to the east side, or the bay each day. Why is our voice in SW MI so small ? Every time someone posts they want to hunt into December it trips the panic button for everyone outside of SW MI. And for the record, I am careful for what I wish for. When your back is against the wall, and it feels like it is with this season zone/date deal, one has to be careful. 

Remember one thing, I am talking duck season, not goose season. There are so many geese around this area it is not a problem any time they choose to run that, if you can get permission in a field. And in December it is MUCH easier to get that. 

Sorry for the long winded post, but I tried to lay off, as I know how bad a thrashing one can get for posting an opinion on season dates.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

hunting man said:


> I don't think you are old enough to have hunted a 30 day season.


Hell, I remember the days of 10 point blue bills.


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## Sprig (Jul 18, 2004)

The following is my opinion and not fact, but I think I'm pretty close 

1. Peak 'Northern Migration' happens around the full moons in October and November.

2. Birds building in SW Michigan toward the end and after season are result of state refuges and small potholes/ponds freezing up. I really think there is a correlation between the birds heading 'south' after the refuges on the east side freeze up and the birds seen in southern/southwest Michigan.

3. Birds can't keep coming from the far north aka migrate, late in the season, when there aren't many birds left in the 'frozen tundra-like' conditions exhibited west and north of Michigan.

This all boils down to one 'simple' statement; Western Michigan needs 'legalized baiting'-managed areas like we have in the eastern side of the State. This would solve all of our problems and the season dates would be just fine (so it would seem).


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

what are 10 pt. bluebills?


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Sprig said:


> The following is my opinion and not fact, but I think I'm pretty close
> 
> 1. Peak 'Northern Migration' happens around the full moons in October and November.
> 
> ...


I would love to see that happen, and if somebody can get the motion started i would definately volunteer to help make it happen.


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## Brougham (Jan 29, 2010)

Hunted Saginaw Bay from opener until Dec 3. Found birds when I was willing to move around. I would keep the season the same as I had birds to play with all season. Any later into Dec and ice usually becomes an issue.


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

Brougham said:


> Hunted Saginaw Bay from opener until Dec 3. Found birds when I was willing to move around. I would keep the season the same as I had birds to play with all season. Any later into Dec and ice usually becomes an issue.


That may be true on the east side but i think it is safe to say you guys ice out a bit sooner than we do.


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Bellyup,

One problem with "experience" helping - supposedly with great weight - in determining seasons and zones is that it is temporal in nature: people come and go; people age and don't recall historical particulars as well as when younger; etc.; etc. 

Data on the other hand, doesn't change. It's there. Period. Our ways of measuring may change; the algorithms we use may change, but the data is always there as it is. 

One is scientifc, the other is not. I for one will take scientific over anecdotal any day of the week when needing information to make a decision. 

In fact, I'll argue that the data captured (harvest, band, survey) IS our experience too, just not necessarily for a given instance as detailed as we would like the Feds or State to have it known. Measuring and analyzing costs money, time and resources (much of which is in short supply these days).

Scientific data should carry the greatest weight when making season and zone decisions; emotions and anecdotal are to be given little to no weight IMHO.


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

Dahmers idea works for me...ill take either one of those openers here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

quackersmacker13 said:


> I would love to see that happen, and if somebody can get the motion started i would definately volunteer to help make it happen.


Management areas on the East Side exist because they were already traditional stop over points. The birds were there and they built them, not the other way around.


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

Sprig, 

Interesting correlation. Here's another as possible as the one you mentioned: A strong high correlation between SW MI birds showing up and water freezing up along the northern LP of MI (areas west of 127 or I-75) and northern areas of WI. 

I'd like to know the dominant migration patterns of birds coming through SW MI. I know we have many geese coming through east to west (MVP and SJBP). I'm not sure that's true of the majority of the ducks SW MI gets, as I'm thinking it's the opposite for ducks.

The majority of harvest is of ducks from areas west of Michigan (WI, MN, Western Ontario, Dakotas, etc), but just not sure of those in SW MI (especially Mid-November onward).


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

PhilBernardi said:


> The majority of harvest is of ducks from areas west of Michigan (WI, MN, Western Ontario, Dakotas, etc), but just not sure of those in SW MI (especially Mid-November onward).


The majority of banded ducks that are harvested in SW Michigan from November and onward are from Thunder Bay. That's not anecdotal, that's scientific. This is based upon mallard harvest.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Sprig said:


> 2. Birds building in SW Michigan toward the end and after season are result of state refuges and small potholes/ponds freezing up. I really think there is a correlation between the birds heading 'south' after the refuges on the east side freeze up and the birds seen in southern/southwest Michigan.


Sprig, before looking at the harvest data, I would have thought that same thing. And it still may be true to a small degree. However, the data appears to suggest otherwise. Much of our harvest in SW Michigan before November are from birds that were banded in Michigan, and East and North of our location. The later harvest in SW Michigan is made up of a large majority of Thunder Bay birds. In contrast, the East side harvest coming from Thunder Bay is a very small percentage of their total harvest.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

In addition, if it was safe to correlate band harvest with "real harvest".....the majority of our yearly harvest are Michigan birds, in respect to mallard harvest at least. Number two is Ontario.


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## backroadstravler (Jul 12, 2006)

Well I made it through all 12 pages of "discussion" this am. Some here go off on a tangent on occasion but for the most part great reading. My take is most want the season to go later. I am talking hunters in SW Mi. as those are who I represent. The discussion of 4 zones or realighning the zone boundaries does not mean the season will run longer. You can wish all you want but that doesn't make it happen. I did notice that there are some here that have very personal agendas. The words me and I come up oftern in your posts. Keep the posts coming. They are all a great read.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Made it through all 12 pages as well, going to only provide facts/rules that must be followed, not going to engage in any debate.

So,
2 goose limit: Set by the FEDS, can't be changed unless they change it.

teal season, Or DNRE pushed for one along with the other "production" states this past summer. Response from the FEDS, "we are in the middle of a study that will not be completed for 2 years, there fore, we will not consider any seasons for your states until conclusion of said study." Ie, not happening anytime soon.

3 vs 4 zones: They are up for change this year. What ever change is made is what the state must follow for 5 years. Cannot have 3 zones one year 4 the next etc,etc. 3 zones, each zone gets a split, 4 zones no splits.

Feel free to let me know if you have any other "technical' questions regarding the season setting.

Regards,
Robert


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

goosemanrdk said:


> Made it through all 12 pages as well, going to only provide facts/rules that must be followed, not going to engage in any debate.
> 
> So,
> 2 goose limit: Set by the FEDS, can't be changed unless they change it.
> ...


ok. so any change will last 5 years correct? if we make any changes to our zones, it can at least be reverted back after that 5 years now, correct? before it was said we would lose our grandfather status....understand now we would be able to fall back onto current settings if deemed it necessary?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

That is correct. Previous to this year, our 3 zone system was unique and ours, "grandfather". The feds have decided to make the 3 zones with a split in each zone a standard option for ALL states in the Mississsippi Flyway.

This year is a selection year, and one a state makes a selection, that state is "locked" into that selection until the next next selection period. The selection periods occur every 5 years.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

goosemanrdk said:


> So,
> 2 goose limit: Set by the FEDS, can't be changed unless they change it.


I understand that, but would like to see it run concurrent with duck.

Is this 2 limit revisited on a yearly basis? The amount of geese around right now (and all year) is sick. The feds need to really reconsider at least a 3 limit. 

Sure, most SJB birds that are shot in Michigan are during the 2 bird limit seasons, but not a majority of birds shot are SJB birds.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

KLR said:


> If I'm correct - the Fed's set a maximum earliest opening date (around 9/20??) and a maximum latest closing date (around 1/20)....???
> 
> 
> Why not do away with all the zones and dates and advisory committees and other BS and just let hunters buy a 60 day license, good for any 60 day period inside the fed framework, whenever they feel their best opportunity occurs?
> ...


There you go making way too much sense again. LOL!


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

field-n-feathers said:


> There you go making way too much sense again. LOL!


But what about the people that enjoy hunting early and late season :yikes:


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## Mike L (Sep 8, 2003)

quackersmacker13 said:


> But what about the people that enjoy hunting early and late season :yikes:


Then ?....They have a choice to make. Point being it would be "There" choice. I like KLR's idea, the first thing we would hear would be..."Enforcement" . The Co's are out and about in the outdoors all of the time, they could be checking fishing licenses right along with duck.

The state "Would" pick up extra revenue by selling early licenses and late for
geese. They could still set up the refuge hunts whenever they wanted too as well. I think it's a great idea.........


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## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

KLR said:


> If I'm correct - the Fed's set a maximum earliest opening date (around 9/20??) and a maximum latest closing date (around 1/20)....???
> 
> 
> Why not do away with all the zones and dates and advisory committees and other BS and just let hunters buy a 60 day license, good for any 60 day period inside the fed framework, whenever they feel their best opportunity occurs?
> ...


I remember you suggesting this idea before. Simply a fantastic plan. I am sure there are "reasons" why this isn't allowed but my goodness...talk about making literally everyone happy!!


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

quackersmacker13 said:


> But what about the people that enjoy hunting early and late season :yikes:


Well, like Mike said......then THEY have a choice to make. Or........we could sell two 30 day licenses. You could have 1 - 60 day license, or double the price and have two 30 day licenses. You choose the dates, but they must fall within the set parameters, and they must be consecutive days. The dates that the license is good for can be printed right on the license for any CO to see. I truly can't see any additional enforcement issue either.


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

Might look at it like this:

I could have killed more this year with a later season.
I could have killed more if they let me shoot 10 minutes earlier.
I could have killed more if I had a 100 day season.
I could have killed more with a Zone 3 one week closure in mid Oct.
I could have killed more if they let me use a .223.
I could have killed more if the limit were 10 per day.
I could have killed more without the 3 shell rule.

There are a many things that the state or feds could have done to help me kill more birds this year. Not to sound like nothing can be improved, but we have it pretty good right now and I'm prefectly willing to play by the rules that benefit the majority even if they are not best for me. Great thing to discuss, but you will never please everyone.

Here are the things I am happy for.
I'm happy for a 60 day season.
I'm happy I can shoot 6 ducks per day, 2 geese and 5 mergs.
I'm happy I don't have to wait till sunrise to shoot. Remember that fiasco?
I'm happy I get to hunt into the first week of December.
I'm happy that a CWAC member has taken the time and asked for opinions vs making decisions in a vacume.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

TSS Caddis said:


> Might look at it like this:
> 
> I could have killed more this year with a later season.
> I could have killed more if they let me shoot 10 minutes earlier.
> ...


Very good points Gene.


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## KLR (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't disagree with you at all Caddis - I'm going to hunt wherever the ducks are, whenever the season is open (and then I'm going to go somewhere else and kill their ducks too).


My only reason for making the suggestion it is to end the 3-4 times a year we have to discuss it on the forums. 

This season's dates were fine with me.


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## FullBody (Nov 4, 2008)

Todd...thanks for all your hard work on CWAC! 

Erv...thanks for your upcoming service on CWAC! 

As for my comments....

- Zones 1 and 2 should NOT have the same opener next year. 

- Turkey day should be the reopener for the goose split again next year. 

- If were only locked into it for 5 years with the ability to revert...4 zones is a viable option. Especially if SW MI can start/end its season later.


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## donbtanner (Sep 26, 2007)

KLR said:


> If I'm correct - the Fed's set a maximum earliest opening date (around 9/20??) and a maximum latest closing date (around 1/20)....???
> 
> 
> Why not do away with all the zones and dates and advisory committees and other BS and just let hunters buy a 60 day license, good for any 60 day period inside the fed framework, whenever they feel their best opportunity occurs?
> ...


I like this too, but I dont think it would fly............. a great idea none the less......... Louisiana's west zone stays open till like 1/28 or so...... and east a few days earlier or later, dont remember........ so the fed guidlines go deep into Jan................ If I had this option I would start around Halloween, but I am still thankful for 60 days and 6 birds.........


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## donbtanner (Sep 26, 2007)

TSS Caddis said:


> Might look at it like this:
> 
> I could have killed more this year with a later season.
> I could have killed more if they let me shoot 10 minutes earlier.
> ...


You forgot lead shot in the "could have killed more" and no point system limits in the "happy for" lists.............. good stuff Gene.... and I agree.


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

Here is something interesting I found while reading through the Federal season frameworks...



> Shooting Hours: One-half hour before sunrise to sunset, except that during September 1-15 shooting hours may extend to one-half hour after sunset if all other waterfowl seasons are closed in the specific applicable area.


LINK

So CWAC members, has anyone ever suggested to the DNR that the early goose seaon shooting hours should be extended to one-half hour after sunset? And if so what was their response?


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

Duckman Racing said:


> So CWAC members, has anyone ever suggested to the DNR that the early goose seaon shooting hours should be extended to one-half hour after sunset? And if so what was their response?


Why would you want that? Roost busting is enough of an issue, especially concerning early season local birds.


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> Why would you want that? Roost busting is enough of an issue, especially concerning early season local birds.


I guess you've never had birds come out to feed after shooting hours ended? I see this happen all the time, and it would be nice to be able to shoot at these flocks instead of watching them flare off the field as we are picking up decoys.


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> There are a many things that the state or feds could have done to help me kill more birds this year. Not to sound like nothing can be improved, but we have it pretty good right now and I'm prefectly willing to play by the rules that benefit the majority even if they are not best for me. Great thing to discuss, but you will never please everyone.
> 
> Here are the things I am happy for.
> I'm happy for a 60 day season.
> ...


Caddis,
You forgot to add:
I am happy for the fact that the people who make up the season framework and limit rules are CONSERVATION minded individuals and not the birds are here I should be able to kill them, I see tons around so I should be able to kill more, who cares about that sub-species of migrant goose we don't shoot that many of them, it needs to be worth my while types.

Can you imagine the future if those types set the seasons and bag limits. I can see it now for geese. The MVP and SJB geese shot down to a point of having to close the season when they are around. 

Early goose Aug15-Sep 15 to avoid any migrators. Talk about some mosquito swating weather.
No Migrant season in Oct, Nov or Dec just like the East coast had not long ago.
Late season would have to be a system like the permit Zone of Oregon as there are just enough MVP and SJB birds around. Check every bird and as soon as so many are shot, seasons done!!!!!!

As for Ducks, shoot thepopulation way down 30/3 sounds like lots of fun to me. NOT!!!!!!!!

I am happy with the seasons we get and to be able to hunt, and knowing that there are plenty of birds left around to propigate into the future for my children.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

Duckman Racing said:


> I guess you've never had birds come out to feed after shooting hours ended? I see this happen all the time, and it would be nice to be able to shoot at these flocks instead of watching them flare off the field as we are picking up decoys.


Yes I have seen it. But it also opens up all the birds returning to roost right at 30 mins past sunset. More roosts would be busted than geese shot out of fields. Even guys hunting roosts and have birds return even later, would still be picking up dekes and crap.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

I like it how it is now. Hard to find a cripple in full daylight much less having to try finding one in the near darkness. I dont care to cripple and lose birds.


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## Duckman Racing (Oct 11, 2004)

goosemanrdk said:


> Caddis,
> You forgot to add:
> I am happy for the fact that the people who make up the season framework and limit rules are CONSERVATION minded individuals and not the birds are here I should be able to kill them, I see tons around so I should be able to kill more, who cares about that sub-species of migrant goose we don't shoot that many of them, it needs to be worth my while types.
> 
> ...


Well then I guess we should all just shut up and be happy for what we have and keep our suggestions to ourselves, because it sounds like if we want to make any changes to the season dates/regulations then we are anti-conversationist, blood-thirsty, greedy ***holes. Nice to know thats how at least some members of the CWAC think of us anyway. What does that first C stand for again?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

So suddenly I am not allowed to have my own personal opinion. The views I expressed above are my own personal views, nothing more. I tend to see a lot of "no matter what it was, I am not happy, in all of these threads" Ie. Over on the sea duck thread a person mentioned that the current goose split closing on a Saturday was "a joke". Well guess what, I can almost bet that had the first split closed on Saturday so this split could close on Sunday that would have then been the "joke". That is my only point.

I have stood firm the entire time that I will vote based on the views of those people from MY AREA that I am able to speak with and gather information from. That is what I did this past year and that is what I will do each of the next two years.

It amazes me how quickly guys like you forget the fact that I have stated several times in all of these discussions, that I DID NOT VOTE FOR THE SEASONS THAT I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE LIKED!!!!!!!! The majority of people I was able to speak with wanted different, so that is what I went with. So, there's your C in CWAC!!!!!!!!!


FYI Here is the South Zone season I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE LIKED.

Ducks OCT 2-10, Oct 23-Dec12
Goose Oct 2-NOV 7, NOV 25(thanksgiving)-Dec 2


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## Shiawassee_Kid (Nov 28, 2000)

goosemanrdk said:


> So suddenly I am not allowed to have my own personal opinion. The views I expressed above are my own personal views, nothing more. I tend to see a lot of "no matter what it was, I am not happy, in all of these threads" Ie. Over on the sea duck thread a person mentioned that the current goose split closing on a Saturday was "a joke". Well guess what, I can almost bet that had the first split closed on Saturday so this split could close on Sunday that would have then been the "joke". That is my only point.
> 
> I have stood firm the entire time that I will vote based on the views of those people from MY AREA that I am able to speak with and gather information from. That is what I did this past year and that is what I will do each of the next two years.
> 
> ...


i love your dates.  lets gettem done!


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i love your dates.  lets gettem done!


Find me enough guys to support them and create a "Majority" and we will see what we can do. Until that happens, not much I can do. I don't want to be accused of only trying to fullfill my "own personal agenda"!!!!!!!:evilsmile


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## TSS Caddis (Mar 15, 2002)

goosemanrdk said:


> Find me enough guys to support them and create a "Majority" and we will see what we can do. Until that happens, not much I can do. I don't want to be accused of only trying to fullfill my "own personal agenda"!!!!!!!:evilsmile


Would the sea duck season be open for those 12 days?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

TSS Caddis said:


> Would the sea duck season be open for those 12 days?


What getting the extra week in December isn't good enough to give up those 12 days of seaducks early in the year.:evilsmile


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

Why does that pesky firearm deer season start around Nov. 15th again? Something about rut activity or something? Maximizing hunter opportunity? I don't know. Apparently whoever proposed that isn't much of a conservationist. Blood-thirsty communists anyway. 

Please explain to me again your thought process on the goose season adjustment to not include Thanksgiving. It had nothing to do with conservation....it was about hunter opportunity and maximizing time afield. Right? And no, the point isn't about the change itself. It's the the thought process behind it.

Coming to the conclusion that because someone wants a change makes them Anti-Conservationist is flat ignorant and offensive.


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## hunting man (Mar 2, 2005)

goosemanrdk said:


> Find me enough guys to support them and create a "Majority" and we will see what we can do. Until that happens, not much I can do. I don't want to be accused of only trying to fullfill my "own personal agenda"!!!!!!!:evilsmile


I'm from the area you rep for. I love those dates. Go for it.


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

Shiawassee_Kid said:


> i love your dates.  lets gettem done!



totally agree.


IEA/Duckman and the 30 minutes after shooting in the sept season:

why not shoot 30 min late if its allowed? The intended purpose of the sept season is to reduce local populations by means of harvest rather than destroying nests and oiling eggs etc..... To me that means, the only reason to have the season is to kill lots of resident birds - if 30 minutes helps harvest 10% more birds (made up stat) then that adds to the overall success of the season in regards to its intended purpose. 

Kinda like how snow goose closes and opens with the canada seasons... last i checked the feds want us to kill as many snows as we can. Granted, we don't have any kind of consistent snow goose hunting here, but there's no reason it should be closed ever within the the fed season dates.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

goosemanrdk said:


> FYI Here is the South Zone season I PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE LIKED.
> 
> Ducks OCT 2-10, Oct 23-Dec12
> Goose Oct 2-NOV 7, NOV 25(thanksgiving)-Dec 2


Who did you talk to that didn't like these dates? I would have liked your dates a lot better. The only change I wouldve made would be goose. I'd start the first goose season later and have it end on Dec. 12th instead. But your season, going later into December and having the Thanksgiving split- would have been far better than what we have now, IMO. So here is one person that you have talked to from the south zone who wants you to vote that way.


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## Ieatantlers (Oct 7, 2008)

thedude said:


> IEA/Duckman and the 30 minutes after shooting in the sept season:
> 
> why not shoot 30 min late if its allowed? The intended purpose of the sept season is to reduce local populations by means of harvest rather than destroying nests and oiling eggs etc..... To me that means, the only reason to have the season is to kill lots of resident birds - if 30 minutes helps harvest 10% more birds (made up stat) then that adds to the overall success of the season in regards to its intended purpose.


Because, in my opinion, you can kill more birds by hunting fields for several days, rather than busting a roost once. Scattering birds by busting roosts every night just makes them harder to pattern, and therefore kill.


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

goosemanrdk,

Your duck dates are doable for me ONLY if the harvest data over the last 20-30 year supports it from my stand point as a mid-michigan waterfowler. 

I've asked Luukonen for data and/or pointers to sources of the data I'm looking for. I'll let everyone here know the outcome and have at the data when, and if, I get it.

Phil


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## PhilBernardi (Sep 6, 2010)

As to the early goose season issue of hunting 1/2 hour past sunset, the bust-the-roost issue has rarely been an issue where I hunt (i.e., they fly before sunset or they have been beaten up and have left the area). It's becomes an issue 2-3 weeks into the regular season. 

But those shooting hours are for only early season. 

I see no need for shooting 1/2 past sunset IMHO. We've controlled the resident numbers without it for the last 2 decades (or whatever time frame it's been).


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

field-n-feathers said:


> Coming to the conclusion that because someone wants a change makes them Anti-Conservationist is flat ignorant and offensive.


Me Ignorant? 
Well, several have come to the conclusion that the goose limit in regular season should be increased to 3, and that season should be longer because they "are seeing tons of geese" Never mind that we have migrant geese that fly through this state and one of those populations isn't exactly doing the greatest, and the other has had struggle in the not so distant past. Uping a limit or increasing the season because one "is seeing tons of geese" with no regards or concern for a struggling population. Well, that is ignorant!


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

Ieatantlers said:


> . So here is one person that you have talked to from the south zone who wants you to vote that way.


But what some are not getting is I DO NOT REP THE ENTIRE SOUTH ZONE. My appointment comes out of the Muskegon State Game area office. Therefore, I represent WEST MICHIGAN, Kent, Ottowa, Muskegon, Allegan, Ionia county area.

There was a group of guys whom I was able to comunicate with that were NOT willing to give up the January 2 day split. They happen to know of a little "nirvana" during those days that they absolutely did not want to give up for an additional week of hunting in December.

They only way I am going to take info into consideration is if you are from the areas above and YOU personally contact me. The internet is just that, the internet.

If you are in my area here is my contact info one more time:
Robert Kobel
[email protected]
Cell 616-881-2705
Please remember, I also have a personal life so be respectful of that when contacting me. Ie, drop me an e-mail first.


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## wavie (Feb 2, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> you can kill more birds by hunting fields for several days, rather than busting a roost once.


Couldnt agree more! 

I like those dates, where do i sign the petition.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

goosemanrdk said:


> Me Ignorant?


Listen, if you would like to continue the mental Kung Fu, we can continue it via PM. You didn't answer the question either. Was the goose season date change conservation, or was it maximizing hunter opportunity and days afield?


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

field-n-feathers said:


> Listen, if you would like to continue the mental Kung Fu, we can continue it via PM. You didn't answer the question either. Was the goose season date change conservation, or was it maximizing hunter opportunity and days afield?


Kung Fu, eh!!! Wow, so you elude that my personal opinion is ignorant and I point out the information and basis for my personal opinion and you get all worked up. Interesting.

As for the goose season change, not sure which the DNRE used to propose. The 2 re-opener options we proposed and the setup for this year was what was favored. It is that whole working within what the "biology folks" feel the population can handle as far as harvest.


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## thedude (Jul 20, 2004)

Ieatantlers said:


> Because, in my opinion, you can kill more birds by hunting fields for several days, rather than busting a roost once. Scattering birds by busting roosts every night just makes them harder to pattern, and therefore kill.


i guess i don't see the difference. if you shoot at birds coming into a roost at 6:30pm or 7:00pm its leaving regardless same if you shoot the roost at noon or 9am.

if you shoot them in a field in the evening, they go back to the roost whether its before or after sunset. 

we hunt after sunset in canada (legal) its LOTS of fun.

i guess i don't really care either way - just saying if the intent of the season is to reduce local populations, then why not have it?


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

goosemanrdk said:


> Wow, so you elude that my personal opinion is ignorant and I point out the information and basis for my personal opinion and you get all worked up. Interesting.


No more than you assume that people with opinions that vary from yours are Anti-Conservationist.



goosemanrdk said:


> As for the goose season change, not sure which the DNRE used to propose. The 2 re-opener options we proposed and the setup for this year was what was favored. It is that whole working within what the "biology folks" feel the population can handle as far as harvest.


Let me refresh your memory on the original question then. Below is but one of your quotes on this subject. I don't see the word "Conservation" anywhere. And let me reiterate that this has nothing to do with the season change, it's simply the reasoning behind it. In your words it has more to do with hunter opportunity and access. That's fair enough, and a good explanation.

_Not really. Concensus of CWAC members was that this was better for *hunter opportunities*. Most of us had many complaints that, while there were lots of birds around Turkey day weekend, getting on them was hard due to the fact that deer season is still going on. Permission can be tuff to get during that time frame. Opening Turkey day and running for the 9 or 10 days, essentially cost many hunters 6 days of goose hunting because they could not get access, and then when they could get access, the season was shut down.

I know that the majority of hunters I spoke too, wanted the the season the way it is this year when given the option. All of their explanations were for the reasons above._


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## quackersmacker13 (Dec 9, 2009)

maybe make it legal to field hunt after sunset, make it illegal to hunt over water after sunset  say within 200ish yards of water? Makes birds easier to pattern, gives field hunters an advantage in the morning and evening, and water hunters still get hunting in the mid afternoon. Sounds like a win win to me....


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## goosemanrdk (Jan 14, 2003)

I am not really following your problem here. My main problem was simple:

Several just want to flog away as long as possible at geese(ie, more than the 45 days) and shoot more(ie up the limit to 3). The feds/DNRE form season frameworks and limits based on what the resource can handle, and then we are allowed a season within those frameworks. 

Fine, argue all you want about when the alloted days are scheduled but don't argue about the limits or the allotment of days that we are allowed. That was my issue that I was getting at in the post this morning.


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## field-n-feathers (Oct 20, 2008)

goosemanrdk said:


> I am not really following your problem here.


I couldn't possibly make it any easier to understand. Moving on.


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