# best dog



## A_Outdoorsman (Oct 20, 2005)

what is the best dog for running grouse and woodcock


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## lowavenger96 (Dec 8, 2004)

This is going to get interesting ...... :lol: 



I say GSP .


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

lowavenger96 said:


> This is going to get interesting ...... :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I say GSP .


Why cause you own one?

It's about time we had a fight!

Flushing Dog

I would say - English Cocker and or other small spaniel, Boykin, AWS, they are small, quiet, swift, sneak attack ambush flush....Drive the bird into the air before the bird new what him em.


Pointing Dog.

The Standard - English Pointer, speed seems to make birds sit, and from my experience the staunchest pointing breed as a whole.


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## lowavenger96 (Dec 8, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> Why cause you own one?
> 
> It's about time we had a fight!
> 
> ...


 
YEP Freedy you got it right becouse I own one and hunt behind one . Gsp's in general are excelent hunters and companions but A DOG ONLY AMMOUNTS TO WHAT THEY ARE TOUGHT .


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## A_Outdoorsman (Oct 20, 2005)

keep the ideas coming


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## LilyDuck (Dec 29, 2004)

Im going to throw this out there, maybe some of you can back me up on it........
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Yorkie by far the best grouse and woodcock dog!


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

LA,

If I am not mistaken you have spoken of significant problems that you have had with your GSP? 

I agree and disagree with your statement on what a dog is taught, there has to be some sort of given prey drive some sort of natural born talent, each dog is different some are smarter than others, just like humans.

I own labs, but by no means are they the best breed for grouse. They are more generalists than specialists when not used as a specialist. Just like I believe GSP's were bred to do a variety of things good. I listed two breeds that I feel excel at grouse hunting from my experiences. Like I said it's about time a good fight got started!:lol: 



Yorkie's Rule! VT forever!


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

I think if you want to kill more grouse get a flushing dog. If you want to be entertained and see/hear more birds get a pointing dog. Here's some thoughts behind my comments.

Flushers work closer which means more birds are going to be flushed close to you. When birds get spooky you can hunt a flusher bell-less which will lead to more of a stalk. When birds are running you want to get them in the air asap and even the best pointer is going to be relocating and often times allowing the bird to escape or flush out of gun range.

Pointing dogs, will cover much more ground and find more birds but even the best aren't going to be able to hold all the grouse you are going to encounter. If you enjoy woodcock hunting you will love hunting with a pointing dog they hold well and there tends to be quite a few around to hunt. The beauty of walking in on a dog on point is something to behold. I know personally I wouldn't trade my pointing dogs for flushers but, if I were just into killing grouse a flusher would be my choice.

I think if you look at just the guys on this sight who hunt with flushers they consistantly kill more grouse than us pointing dog guys but I am sure that we see/hear more grouse and definately see more woodcock.

Hope I didn't offend anyone but, if I did, I really don't care.:lol:  

I am going grouse/woodcock hunting for the next 5 days I will try to give some percentages of birds seen/heard/shot at etc. I won't tell how many I killed or didn't kill because I don't want to be laughed at too much.


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

I would say setters are the best grouse dogs with GSPs coming in really close second

Oh and fred this is not cause I have them but cause I have seen some DANG good ones in the grouse woods

But i most adment Setters are by far pretter and more stylish to look at with the brains to match most of the time

scott


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## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

I once came across this dog that had Lab/GSP/SpringerSpaniel/Vizsla/Griffon/yorkie in it..... Best damn birddog I ever saw!!!!!!!:lol: 

Ok, Truth is I don't know and wouldn't trade my Stella for any other dog in the World.....

Vizsla's Rule!!!!


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

Undoubtedly the Clumber Spaniel or Greyhound or Maine ****


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

pporonto said:


> I once came across this dog that had Lab/GSP/SpringerSpaniel/Vizsla/Griffon/yorkie in it


that sounds like somthing the germans would call a wirehaired pointer or GWP LMAO :lol:


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

lowavenger96 said:


> This is going to get interesting ...... :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I say GSP .


Don't you watch T.V.?? GSPs are show dogs now! :corkysm55


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## lowavenger96 (Dec 8, 2004)

Steelheadfred said:


> LA,
> 
> If I am not mistaken you have spoken of significant problems that you have had with your GSP?
> 
> ...


Well . Yes I have had problems with my GSP but most of them were my fault being he is my first bird dog . Most of the problems have been solved by just gitting out and hunting with him so far this yr with the 2 times I have been out he has pointed and held 19 woodcock and 22 grouse and out of the 5 times or so we went out for a hr or 2 we put up 30 or so phez . I say for a 1 yr old GSP it is damn good he ranges nicely and handles commands good . This is all i ask of him for the time being . I still do yard work in between hunting and he is a work in progress , but never the less I just want to get out and hunt . 


So why do you want to fight with me ? I've never meet you nor do I care to with your attitude . Never claimed my dog to be a champion but maybe one day he will be .


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## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

> Undoubtedly the Clumber Spaniel or Greyhound or Maine ****


Fieldwalker, you crack me up!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

> So why do you want to fight with me ? I've never meet you nor do I care to with your attitude . Never claimed my dog to be a champion but maybe one day he will be .


You have to forgive Fritz, 
You know how those Lab guys are:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Anyone ever see this pic?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

BIGSP,

By far your post maybe the most honest well written answer to the flusher vs. pointer for grouse debate I have read on one of these boards. My hat is off to you Sir. I have always enjoyed your posts but have some how found a new level of respect for you.

LA - congrats on the numbers you and your dog are great just by posting numbers you allow a glimpse into your bird hunting experience. Never meant to affend you.

Timber?

If Setters and Shorthairs are 1 & 2 for pointing breeds then where do you rate Pointers? Also how do you describe the pure dominance of pointers in the Walking Grouse Dog trials on wild birds?

I am thinking about a Pit for my next bird dog, but if I am lucky, maybe a Cavelier King Charles Spaniel, the wife wants one!:lol: Adam could get the ex's dog and we could have a little, toy trial.

Fritz


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## colehatch (Jun 18, 2003)

pporonto said:


> You have to forgive Fritz,
> You know how those Lab guys are:lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Anyone ever see this pic?


Are they a couple GSP guys? :yikes: 

Kidding...I had to throw that out there because I'm a lab guy myself. :lol:


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> Timber?
> 
> If Setters and Shorthairs are 1 & 2 for pointing breeds then where do you rate Pointers? Also how do you describe the pure dominance of pointers in the Walking Grouse Dog trials on wild birds?
> 
> Fritz



Well fritz for starters this was a opinion question and I would have to say Pointers would be 3rd every pointer I have seen has been WAY to RAMMY and hard headed for me to take in the grouse woods

as far as them Walking Grouse Dog trials I could really give a hoot less what dogs are the best in that game never been to one not sure if I ever will go and at the same Time I could careless what any one things of me or my dogs

many people on this site have seen them hunt in and out of the grouse woods and they do JUST what I need them to 

Now thats my opinion

you wanted a fight you got it I am done with this one you can have the last word

scott


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## pporonto (Oct 8, 2003)

colehatch,

Thats funny!!:lol:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Great Picture!


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

Grouse and woodcock ? Well for woodcock I'd say hands down a pointing breed. Probably one of the continentals because they tend to be pretty pushy with the birds and try to get close. I'd probably give the nod to the GWP because they tend to be a bit slower than the other bob tails and have a bit more control in the woods.
Grouse, well I'd say it depends on the day. Wet miserable rainy days when the bird want to sit, pointer, my preferencew would go to the E setter cause of the style. On those dry scentless days when the birds seem to like to run, I'd give it to a flusher, take your pick on the breed. Just watch the tail and keep up .

Bottom line is that there is no perfect dog for every bird in all conditions. Just a bunch of good dogs that we all love to hunt over.


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## gregm (Feb 13, 2002)

ccavacini said:


> Notice how Brittany owners, all gentlemen, are staying out of this:lol:


 

Because we already know the answer to the question .


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

coverdog said:


> My field trial dogs are a pleasure to hunt over. You don't need a horse either. In fact we don't use horses in trials either. Grouse trials are done on foot only for the handler. There is a misconception out there that they run too big to hunt I think. First of all, one trained properly will hold the bird if it takes you five minutes to find him, no question. Second the intelligent dogs know the difference between hunting and trialing and adjust their range a bit. They are fiercely competitive in trials and want to find the bird before their brace mate and that is why they cover so much ground so quickly. I think everyone I know in coverdog trials hunts the same dogs they trial and they hold the birds in hunting as well. That's what their training is all about, holding the birds until the boss comes in to flush. Good coverdog trial dogs are pure hunting dogs that are just on a mission during the trials.


Thanks for the info. I thought they were all done on horseback. I stand corrected, I guess I never thought about dogs running bigger because they are braced. I know my dogs run bigger when they are together instead of alone.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Lucky Dog said:


> Grouse and woodcock ? Well for woodcock I'd say hands down a pointing breed. Probably one of the continentals because they tend to be pretty pushy with the birds and try to get close. I'd probably give the nod to the GWP because they tend to be a bit slower than the other bob tails and have a bit more control in the woods.


No offense but, this is one of the misinformed statements that I have read. Any dog that gets pushy with birds is a lousy bird dog if you ask me, or probably more correctly has a lousy owner/trainer. Some shorthairs will kick butt on some setters and vice versa. And once again slow is not always better, under control is what you want.


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

Take a few hours off and 3 pages later :lol: pretty civil thread though.

Now I'm not going to make comments that some would think I would but there has been a lot of good comments here, especially by coverdog  

I think if you really want to know that question, you need to do 2 things.

1) Attend a grouse dog trial

2) Talk to a "pro grouse dog trainer" and if you own a breed don't tell him what you have, as they have trained all breeds.

I sort of did that this weekend when I met Dave Hughes, probably the pro with the most Ch wins on the circut today.
I won't mention the breed but I will say this.
A pointing dog, one that points at first scent from a distance (doesn't crowd the bird as a good grouse dog points grouse cover, waits for the handler to flush and dosen't relocate unless called on by the handler to do so) runs and scents with a high head and has a high level of intelligence. :corkysm55 

How did I do ? Man in 2 years I learned alot

Wally


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> Thanks for the info. I thought they were all done on horseback. I stand corrected, I guess I never thought about dogs running bigger because they are braced. I know my dogs run bigger when they are together instead of alone.


I've seen that in my own pup. I actually lost track of her at an FT (walking stakes). She pointed a bird right away but it took me a while to find it and convince it to fly. Meanwhile, my bracemate just kept on going. For the rest of the brace my dog was over 200 to 300 yards out and out of my sight when time was called. This was open ground in Illinois. I've been hunting woodcock solo with the same dog for the last three weeks in the thick, nasty thorny stuff and the dog works 30 - 50 yards out.


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## DonP (Nov 15, 2000)

lowavenger96 said:


> This is going to get interesting ......


... and entertaining too....









anyone?  :lol:


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

drwink said:


> Take a few hours off and 3 pages later :lol: pretty civil thread though.
> 
> Now I'm not going to make comments that some would think I would but there has been a lot of good comments here, especially by coverdog
> 
> ...


I think you did pretty darn Good Wally!

Fritz


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## Garden Bay (Jun 24, 2004)

DonP said:


> anyone?  :lol:


Yeah, Pass that over here would ya?


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

LilyDuck said:


> Im going to throw this out there, maybe some of you can back me up on it........
> .
> .
> .
> ...




In the event that was directed towards me, of course I know it was. The yorkie is not a good grouse dog he is currently being trained (by his new owner) to try and pin those elusive Michigan cougars.

Now to answer the question, a setter numnuts everyone with a brain knows a setter plain and simple.
 

AW


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

To answer the question posed, I have to say my prejudice is with a good pointing dog. A good pointing dog will range appropriate to the cover. A cooperative dog will not loose his partner for very long. My Vizslas have variable range and the only time I've lost track of one was the FT I mentioned in the previous post.

As for grouse trials. I've never seen one but just about every type of trial I have witnessed is subject to prejudices, politics and breed blindness that limits the validity of the outcome. If three continentals placed 1, 2, 3 in a Pointer/Setter dominated trial I don't think the judges would be invited back. 

I'm not saying trials, in the generic sense, have no value. They have a great deal comparative value for specific breeds and purposes. They are simply limited by their subjectiveness and no broad conclusions can be drawn from the outcomes. Like "what's the best grouse & woodcock dog?". 

Personally, I think the best dog is the one that puts a smile on its owners face at the end of the day. Although a limit of birds is nice too  .


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## Double Gun (Feb 22, 2005)

If we are talking about pointing dogs I agree with Wally. Anyone who has ever seen a setter go thru the woods with a high head and slam on point knows the answer. I have not hunted grouse with a pointer but I am sure they run the same. The contenintal breeds are great for all around gun dogs but if you want a dog strictly for grouse and woodcock go with the setter.

The most important thing is to enjoy the type of dog you get. Do some research and find a breed that matches the type of hunting you do. Most breeds will make an adequate gun dog with time and training. I think it is obvious a lot of guys suffer from kennel blindness. The saying goes never insult a mans bird dog.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

ccavacini said:


> Notice how Brittany owners, all gentlemen, are staying out of this:lol:



GEE I don't know because Brits are the doormats of the dog world. Never seen one with a lick of smarts :lol: 

AW


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Who care's really? 

I've had the pleasure of hunting behind good labs, a good weim, VHD's and Fieldwalker's Vizlas, a couple of shorthairs, and I'm sure a couple others that I missed. All bird dogs, all different, some better than others, some too young to judge, some still learning the game. 

But for me, it really doesn't matter what breed. A good bird dog is a good bird dog no matter what the breed. Personally, I care more about the company I'm hunting with than the breed of their dogs.


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## BarryPatch (Jul 21, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


> Who care's really?
> 
> I've had the pleasure of hunting behind good labs, a good weim, VHD's and Fieldwalker's Vizlas, a couple of shorthairs, and I'm sure a couple others that I missed. All bird dogs, all different, some better than others, some too young to judge, some still learning the game.
> 
> But for me, it really doesn't matter what breed. A good bird dog is a good bird dog no matter what the breed. Personally, I care more about the company I'm hunting with than the breed of their dogs.


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

So Kush isn't saying GSP :lol: 

AW


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> No offense but, this is one of the misinformed statements that I have read. Any dog that gets pushy with birds is a lousy bird dog if you ask me, or probably more correctly has a lousy owner/trainer. Some shorthairs will kick butt on some setters and vice versa. And once again slow is not always better, under control is what you want.


No ofense taken, I'll just consider the source.
Re read my post. I did not say I wanted a dog that gets pushy with BIRDS. I said I want a dog to get pushy with woodcock. I don't want my woodcock dog to get in there and point the bird, not the area the bird is in. I don't want a woodcock dog to be pointing 20 yards away, I want it 20 feet away. I will dissagree with your other misinformed statement as well. In a tight woodcock cover, a slower dog will be easier to control. For a woodcock dog I will always choose a slow dog over a fast one.
Sorry if I offended you by not picking your breed of shoice.


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## GVSUKUSH (Mar 9, 2004)

Adam Waszak said:


> So Kush isn't saying GSP :lol:
> 
> AW


I'm saying I don't know. Ruger has become an excellent pet (this is within the last few months :lol: ) and is coming along as a bird dog. Would I get another one? without a doubt. Would I like a Setter someday? Sure would. Along with being a bird dog, my dog(s) will always be pets first and foremost and part of the family. They'll share a couch with me and my kids someday.......... 'cause I'm a softy  .


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Oh shoot

I got to reading these threads and didnt even give my reasons why 


1 pick

Setters the reason I think setters are a better grouse dog is because they tend to be soft footed and listen well with the setters personality they tend to hunt for you not for there self. and with there good nose and brains they learn fast and know just how far they can go

Plus they are by far the prettest bird dog on point

2 pick

GSPs from what I have seen GSP just like setters have a great personality and for the most part they tend to hunt for you not for there self. Rarly going much past gun range my GSPs know how to handle the birds and I think they have a upper hand at finding downed or wounded birds

Plus thats what I own

I didnt put pointers in there cause they are often hard headed and BULL like busting the brush instead of tip toeing around it like a well trained dancer never turning a leaf you will often here the BIG pushy pointers as they run for there self with no regards to the hunter what so ever

Now thats my 2 cents worth

scott


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## Duece22 (Mar 30, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


> Who care's really?
> 
> I've had the pleasure of hunting behind good labs, a good weim, VHD's and Fieldwalker's Vizlas, a couple of shorthairs, and I'm sure a couple others that I missed. All bird dogs, all different, some better than others, some too young to judge, some still learning the game.
> 
> But for me, it really doesn't matter what breed. A good bird dog is a good bird dog no matter what the breed. Personally, I care more about the company I'm hunting with than the breed of their dogs.



Very well said kush. As said above it is different for everyone and as Double gun said you have to find a breed that fits you and your style of hunting. Depending on conditions and numerous other things a different dog could be the "best" I have hunted behind many good pointing dogs and have enjoyed them all. I agree there is nothing like watching them lock up on point so staunch that they are vibrating, but i have grown up with labs and enjoy hunting behind them and now have one that points on its own wiht no training to do so. I dont discrouage it but i dont train it either. We are all just out there to have fun, whether you shoot a hundred birds or none in a season you are still getting in the woods with your bird dog.
Ric


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

wyle_e_coyote said:


> Adam you arse...I can't believe you put that in your signature...:lol:
> I think I might have to look up one of the great YORKIE quotes....:lol:



Again the Yorkie was never my dog and he is long gone never to come into my home again :lol: 

Brit= 

:lol: AW


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

gregm said:


> A Brittany, Nolan's Last Bullet, put that series on the map by utterly dominating it and still holds most of the Records (C'mon TimberGSP, you knew I was going to bring that up!!!!).



Oh I knew it why why Greg HUH

Oh becase buddy was only the best brit in NSTRA wait wait the best dog in the NSTRA 

BUT how many records did britts hold until then HMMMM its only right that 1 single britt not only beat EVERY NSTRA record but SMASH them

after all I think buddy thought he was a GSP

his record

2004 Quail Unlimited National Champion, 2003 Trial of Champions winner, 2003 Quail Unlimited, Nestle/Purina Dog of the Year, 2003 & 3 times National Grand Champion (only dog to do this in NSTRA), 32 times NSTRA Champion (all time NSTRA record), Record holder for most points ever earned life time and single season in NSTRA, 6 times American Field Champion, 14 times in the final four at National Field Trial Events, 9 one hour wins:

I have a britt here at the house I am training right now this dog is truly stunning if she keeps up the pace like she is I will be gettting a britt BUT i am sure she will fall short of this

scott


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## dyemen (Feb 20, 2005)

POLARBEAR said:


> there is always a better dog in a different breed, but if you choose the pup wisely and spend time with it and love it dearly, you may end up with michigans greatest bird dog. lol i know i have 2 that i wouldnt trade for any other. not even a wactelhund. lol :lol:


I SEE! JAB....JAB!!! My chin hurts, Polar.......:SHOCKED: :tsk: :sad: :lol: 
Actually, the best dog is whatever you choose it to be! We are arguing an un-answerable question... though I agree that there are some great points for the different breeds of dogs! I have hunted behind pointing dogs and I have hunted behind flushers.....if you need time to Prepare yourself to shoot and cover lots of ground quickly, Pointers work great! If you like the challenge of snap-shooting, reading your dog, and a fast, thoruogh pace....then flushers maybe are for you! This has really been a great Post to read!


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## jimmyjette14 (Aug 25, 2005)

ok maybe not the best breed for every one. the best dog even if you narrow to woodcock and grouse depends on how you like to hunt. ranging dogs make me nervus. the best dog for me right now is a short range flusher. I did hunt with Scott [fieldwalker] and enjoyed his viszla very nice dog. we did not see anything that day so how it does on birds I dont know. I had this conversation with our trainer. whom is a trial judge he said a lab would suite me and my pace the best as a [breed] goes. he also said that my cheesie will be a very very good hunt dog and wants me to help with some of the hunts at the club. at this time a pointer just aint it for me. but as many have said hunting is only part of the year and on a cold day well all I can say keep your wife handy cause that v or gsp aint keeping you warm!  if you dont like the dog it dont matter how it hunts. so before you answer what breed find out what type of hunting and other activities you are going to do. Jim


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## Jumpshootin' (Jul 6, 2000)

I'm a Lab guy, but I would have to say a close working pointing breed would be the best.


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## dogn4birdz (Aug 24, 2004)

this thing is getting posts faster than I can read them. Just go with a mix. I saved a poor puppy at the animal shelter that is a weim/eng.pointer mix 50/50.Now she may not be the best dog at anything but no matter what we have hunted for that species has been put on the table for food at the end of the day. Many here have hunted over her or with us and can verify that.

The best dog is your dog or you wouldn't hunt over it in the first place.

This is a hot topic and open to more opinons that where is Jimmy Hoffa. The dog that points Jimmy Hoffa would win the title.


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## BowDad (Jul 19, 2000)

Glad to see that this thread is still open and that everyone has kept their sense of humor. That's what I like about this place. 

I'll have to agree with Olman ... At the end of the day what really matters is that you're happy with what you're feeding.


Keep up the good work!


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## bedlyblaster (Jan 1, 2003)

Dont get a water spaniel. They get a lot of burrs in their coat. Tuff thick cover tires them out easy especially pheasant type cover. They get ear infections easy. They have a voracious appetite for their size. You cant train them very much, Sit come heel and no thats about it. They get too bored and lose interest with training. There is no way you could field trial them, this would mess them up and they would need doggy pshyco therapy. you are Constantly tripping over them because they hunt under your feet. Would not recommend an aws, it is the exact opposite of what most bird hunters think they want in a bird dog. an aws is much better suited to be a ducky dog. 
larry


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## Bear Creek (Feb 9, 2003)

Thank you Cover Dog and Worm Dunker! Yes CD I agree Setters are the prettiest.[/QUOTE]

Yeah they might be pretty but who wants to clean them up after the hunt!! :lol: :lol: 

I'll take my crew cut dogs. Wash and wear that's my motto!!

Bear Creek


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Lucky Dog said:


> No ofense taken, I'll just consider the source.
> Re read my post. I did not say I wanted a dog that gets pushy with BIRDS. I said I want a dog to get pushy with woodcock. I don't want my woodcock dog to get in there and point the bird, not the area the bird is in. I don't want a woodcock dog to be pointing 20 yards away, I want it 20 feet away. I will dissagree with your other misinformed statement as well. In a tight woodcock cover, a slower dog will be easier to control. For a woodcock dog I will always choose a slow dog over a fast one.
> Sorry if I offended you by not picking your breed of shoice.


I don't get easily offended, sorry if my post was a bit snippy.

I don't have a breed of choice, people can choose whatever they want. I still disagree with you though, why can't you have a fast working dog that is under control? My shorthairs today hunting from noon to 5 pointed all 12 woodcock that we saw and I was able to flush all of them from their noses. They pointed 5 of the 7 grouse that we encountered (of course I killed the 2 that flushed wild). So don't tell me that slow plodders are easier to control and find more birds.
I still stand by my original post that states flushers will allow you to kill more grouse but most likely encounter less.


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## POLARBEAR (May 13, 2002)

dyemen said:


> I SEE! JAB....JAB!!! My chin hurts, Polar.......:SHOCKED: :tsk: :sad: :lol:
> Actually, the best dog is whatever you choose it to be! We are arguing an un-answerable question... though I agree that there are some great points for the different breeds of dogs! I have hunted behind pointing dogs and I have hunted behind flushers.....if you need time to Prepare yourself to shoot and cover lots of ground quickly, Pointers work great! If you like the challenge of snap-shooting, reading your dog, and a fast, thoruogh pace....then flushers maybe are for you! This has really been a great Post to read!


lmao! :lol: i wondered if you would catch that. lol


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

Hevi said:


> But...if i were going to get a dog just for early season grouse hunting...I would have to say the "HAIRLESS CHINESE CRESTED"!!


 


GVSUKUSH said:


> After much thought, I'd have to say the best dog is Sam, he's a lovely 14 year old Chinese Crested Hairless :tdo12:


 

Aren't they a beautiful dog?:lol:


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## POLARBEAR (May 13, 2002)

Hevi said:


> Aren't they a beautiful dog?:lol:


that is one incredibly nasty looking dog. i would rather meet cujo than see that mean sob in the woods. yuck :SHOCKED: :help:


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## Hevi (May 18, 2004)

How many dewclaws does that thing have?:yikes:


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## POLARBEAR (May 13, 2002)

:lol: i saw that too but i think it is the rear leg ahead of the front foot.? i hope that sob isnt in my dreams tonight. :lol:


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

Hevi said:


> How many dewclaws does that thing have?:yikes:


OMG no kidding that thing cant be reall


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

POLARBEAR said:


> :lol: i saw that too but i think it is the rear leg ahead of the front foot.? i hope that sob isnt in my dreams tonight. :lol:



I think you are wrong most dogs DONT have Dew claws on the rear feet but who knows with that thing

scott


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

POLARBEAR said:


> :lol: i saw that too but i think it is the rear leg ahead of the front foot.? i hope that sob isnt in my dreams tonight. :lol:


Dang Darin If you really look at it you are right thats the front and rear leg

scott


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## labdog99 (May 8, 2005)

that nasty thing has it's own web site

http://samugliestdog.com/


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

BIGSP said:


> They pointed 5 of the 7 grouse that we encountered (of course I killed the 2 that flushed wild). So don't tell me that slow plodders are easier to control and find more birds.
> I still stand by my original post that states flushers will allow you to kill more grouse but most likely encounter less.


I still can't grasp this concept.
Why will the flusher encounter fewer birds and why do they provide more killing opportunities? Maybe if you stop shooting wild flushing birds while hunting your pointing dogs your chances would go up with the pointers? I don't know. Do you let your pointy dog retrieve those birds that are shot from wild flushes? I don't think you should if you are, dog gets reward for not doing its job. I shoot wild flushers too when the dog is in the next zip code but I don't see how it could get any easier than walking in and kicking out grouse from under a pointing dogs nose.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> I still can't grasp this concept.
> Why will the flusher encounter fewer birds and why do they provide more killing opportunities? Maybe if you stop shooting wild flushing birds while hunting your pointing dogs your chances would go up with the pointers? I don't know. Do you let your pointy dog retrieve those birds that are shot from wild flushes? I don't think you should if you are, dog gets reward for not doing its job. I shoot wild flushers too when the dog is in the next zip code but I don't see how it could get any easier than walking in and kicking out grouse from under a pointing dogs nose.


That is what I do. I don't shoot bumped birds, only birds that I flush. My dogs point them fine rarely do they bump grouse. I just think that when you hunt with a flusher you don't have those birds that run out from a dogs point and flush 30yds out in front of you in thick cover. I really doubt that you have too many birds that hold so tight that you can go in there and "kick them out". I have only had a few this year.

Some of you flushing dog guys get in here and help me.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Sure you're going to have birds walk out of points thats why its called hunting and not shooting  . Birds that walk away are still fair game and the dog gets a chance to relocate and point bird again. Rarely does that situation occur to me where a bird that walks out from a point flush after it has re-established its safety zone. Grouse would rather walk than fly anyday. Flyers are too easy prey for the predators from above, if a grouse walks safely away I don't find that they want to take flight at that time. The spots I hunt don't see much pressure though, so maybe the birds act a little different than the grouse you hunt, I think that plays a big role.
"kick them out" is a relative term. kicking out grouse is different than kicking out pheasants. Where you may have pheasants bury under some grass and you literally have to put a boot under them, I'm not saying thats what happens to grouse but I'm saying dog is on point, hunter knows bird is there, walks to the front of dog, bird flushes due to hunters presence. That's what I call kicking them out. I can only think of two birds in the last three seasons that I have shot over 20 yards away.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

BIGSP - I find your honesty about flushing dogs considering your are a pointer man refreshing. Most pointer men seem to rationalize it different.

Now I am not sure you would kill more birds over a flusher; I will make a couple comments then share my hunt from last night.

1. Flushers with wild flushed grouse, if a grouse flushes wild and you kill it, it becomes a positive experience for the dog to get a retrieve. Most of the guys I hunt with that have pointers dont want you shooting bumped birds. So there is an advantage that you can shoot what ever you want and not worry about it messing up the dog so to speak.

2. There are just to many variables to the game, cover, weather, ability of the shooter with a shot gun. 

3. Unlike pheasant hunting or WC, when a flusher is birdy the bird flushes very close to the dog off the dog's nose so to speak. Grouse dont allow that pressure much (some do) but when one of my dogs gets "HOT" I know there is a bird in the area, get my eyes up and pick a lane, some times they come off her nose some times they dont, but at least I have warning one is in the area. Many people I hunt with watch the dog and miss a bird that comes up 15 yards away cause they think like a pheasant the bird will come off the dogs nose.

3A. I think 2ESGR8 makes the best point in the thread, no weekend warriors dogs are going to hold a candle to the guys that hunt and train every day on wild birds regaurdless of breed.

Last night I moved 9/10 grouse, it was my first time out since the leaves were down as I have been pheasant hunting. 4 birds came up in range, I had an easy shot I blew at one bird - all 4 birds were worked by the dog, the dog ran right over another bird that she never even got birdie on till the bird flushed. The other 5 birds all flushed wild at the edge of gun range, with those birds I am not sure any style of dog could have gotten close. 

One thing I noticed last night was that now the leaves are down and ferns dead, the grouse not only know where the dog is but where you are, and put many more trees inbtween us, like a nice pine....

I think one of the reasons I kill some birds over Hilde the flusher is due to the pattern she runs in the woods, when she is working well she quarters, I feel as much as anything this quartering funnels or pushes birds up in front of the gunner, not as much of those back pocket flushes.


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## oleman (Oct 2, 2005)

Bear Creek

and other with setters.

I learned a long time ago to shave my setters just before season opens-----Cuts way down on the maintence time of a setter after the hunt. Just a few feathers on the tip of the tail is all I leave-----People have ask if I was running Pointsetters when I have one of my setters on the ground with my pointer.


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## bedlyblaster (Jan 1, 2003)

you never know what is going to happen with flushers and grouse. depends on cover and the grouse. now with the leaves down in the aspen most of the birds flush wild. the spots i hunt get pounded hard. as soon as huck starts working you better be ready, the grouse is going to go. a lot of times he doesnt smell it till it flushes. a lot of the time i will get a chance to sit him one time when he is real birdy and get in place for a shot then let him flush. usually the flush is 10 yds or so from the dog. if there is a blow down or thick cover in the aspen they will sit tighter. these hard hunted birds are not going to let huck get close in on them. If they have not been shot at that is another story. but for the most part we are dealing with educated birds now. but there are always the exception one out many will hold tight. it also depends on the flush. low flying birds live till next time. hi flushers get shot for dinner. if they flush wild usually flush low. tight flushers go up high and get shot.
larry


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## ccavacini (Mar 9, 2005)

oleman said:


> Bear Creek
> 
> and other with setters.
> 
> I learned a long time ago to shave my setters just before season opens-----Cuts way down on the maintence time of a setter after the hunt. Just a few feathers on the tip of the tail is all I leave-----People have ask if I was running Pointsetters when I have one of my setters on the ground with my pointer.


I do the same with my Brittany....just clip a little here and there...behind her ears, in her crotch, and her feathers....the worst is the belly...just enough hair to snag burrs...afraid to take it all off as it offers some protection.


I've been spraying her with Laser Sheen (got the idea from another site). That seems to make the burrs come out easier....She does, though, enjoy my picking out the burrs....must be a Britt thing.


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## TomW (Nov 19, 2003)

ccavacini said:


> I've been spraying her with Laser Sheen (got the idea from another site). That seems to make the burrs come out easier....She does, though, enjoy my picking out the burrs....must be a Britt thing.


No our Setters love this quality time as well. 

Tom W


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## Garden Bay (Jun 24, 2004)

GVSUKUSH said:


> After much thought, I'd have to say the best dog is Sam, he's a lovely 14 year old Chinese Crested Hairless :tdo12:


That dog is the current and past "World's Ugliest Dog" winner.....

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/uglydog.asp


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## labdog99 (May 8, 2005)

Congratulations everyone, this thread has now surpased the Big 10 Cheerleader Calandar!!!!!


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## gregm (Feb 13, 2002)

labdog99 said:


> Congratulations everyone, this thread has now surpased the Big 10 Cheerleader Calandar!!!!!


Yeah, but we've got a LOOOOOOONG way to go to catch the "Fremont Lake Walleye" thread over on Warm Water Fishing. They're up to 33 pages and almost 500 posts!!!! But hey, we've only had this one going for one day, we should catch'em by Sunday or Monday (counting the slow posting activity on the weekend a lot of people are in the field instead of at work playing on the computer  )


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

Not ot hijack the thread but, do labradoodles hunt? I am looking at some from a guy who is selling a few out of the back of his house up the street...he seems like a reputable breeder. I think this will be my next dog. Thoughts?


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## gregm (Feb 13, 2002)

PahtridgeHunter said:


> Not ot hijack the thread but, do labradoodles hunt? I am looking at some from a guy who is selling a few out of the back of his house up the street...he seems like a reputable breeder. I think this will be my next dog. Thoughts?


Yeah, they're great dogs!!! Almost as good as the Braque de Deutche Breton Wirehaird Pointing Setter  :evil: :lol:


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

PahtridgeHunter said:


> Not ot hijack the thread but, do labradoodles hunt? I am looking at some from a guy who is selling a few out of the back of his house up the street...he seems like a reputable breeder. I think this will be my next dog. Thoughts?




Well this Could and MAY start a oh knew line of trouble BUT

I cant see how any one that MIXES breeds like the labradoodles Can call them self a reputable breeder 

All them New fancy Hybrids are is a FAST act at some cash just another sales gimic

scott


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## Adam Waszak (Apr 12, 2004)

Bear Creek said:


> Thank you Cover Dog and Worm Dunker! Yes CD I agree Setters are the prettiest.


Yeah they might be pretty but who wants to clean them up after the hunt!! :lol: :lol: 

I'll take my crew cut dogs. Wash and wear that's my motto!!

Bear Creek[/QUOTE]


Cleaning em up is worth seeing the beauty perform in the field. And has anyone smelled the GSP's no wonder so many are ouside dogs :lol: 

AW


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## Worm Dunker (Sep 11, 2000)

I know many of you have wondered why I haven't put in my two cents worth yet! Well I have been dealling with more pressing problems. Look at the orignal question Again. 
best dog 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what is the best dog for running grouse and woodcock

This is a trick question it doesn't say whats the best breed of grouse dog it says best dog for RUNNING grouse and woodcock period. So the best dog for a running bird is not a pointing breed. Every time that bird stops the pointing dog will stop. So sooner or later a running bird will flush usually wild so I would say a flusher ( what ever is your favorite breed ). They get a nose full of bird and it's off to the races till they eithor catch it or put it to flight. Sorry to see you guys going over that same old dog fight my grouse dog breed is better than yours but what the heck we haven't had a good fight in a while!


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## PahtridgeHunter (Sep 1, 2004)

timbergsp said:


> Well this Could and MAY start a oh knew line of trouble BUT
> 
> I cant see how any one that MIXES breeds like the labradoodles Can call them self a reputable breeder
> 
> ...


Sorry, Scott, I was being VERY sarcastic!!!:lol:


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## drwink (Oct 15, 2003)

hows it going up at the Grand National, must be some long distance posting with your laptop :lol:


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## timbergsp (Feb 10, 2003)

PahtridgeHunter said:


> Sorry, Scott, I was being VERY sarcastic!!!:lol:



OH man you had me wooried


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## gregm (Feb 13, 2002)

PahtridgeHunter said:


> Sorry, Scott, I was being VERY sarcastic!!!:lol:


Me Too


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

Worm Dunker said:


> I know many of you have wondered why I haven't put in my two cents worth yet! Well I have been dealling with more pressing problems. Look at the orignal question Again.
> best dog
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


Thank you Wormdunker. That is the point that I was trying to make. Just like pheasant hunting typical the most practical dog for the job is a flusher. Running grouse, same thing.


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## Rook"e" (Oct 30, 2003)

A trained one. Pointers have a tough time on grouse. I was behind a very experienced dog and his points kept coming up empty. I am sure there was a bird there at some point, just not when we got there.

Put my lab down and, boom, birds. Just have to keep up with him! Wear your Nikes.

My brief experience has shown that most hunters need to improve, not the dog. Too many command mistakes and so on.


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## upnut (Aug 31, 2004)

This has been a great thread, learned from experience! I've held back on shooting( just today in fact) because I wasn't sure if my Lab had flushed the rooster or if it was a wild flush. We had 'em popping up left and right. So from now on, if the shot presents itself, take it and let Sam do the fetching...Cool!!!... Scott


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## A_Outdoorsman (Oct 20, 2005)

when i say running for woodcock and pats i mean what dog is better dog for hunting not really running them i just said running this thread turned out good keep posting opions maybe a sticky?


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

A_Outdoorsman said:


> when i say running for woodcock and pats i mean what dog is better dog for hunting not really running them i just said running this thread turned out good keep posting opions maybe a sticky?


For a 15 year old user with 80 post... you certainly know the workings of M-S


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## curious_hunter (Sep 9, 2005)

Thanks for the information BarryPatch and Tecumseh. Also, very nice website Tecumseh.


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## A_Outdoorsman (Oct 20, 2005)

Vizslas or EP's ??


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## dogn4birdz (Aug 24, 2004)

It all depends what you want how your dog is bred if you want a big runner a boot polisher. There is no better than 1. It depends on the dogs training, ability, adaptability, drive, and so on. It depends on the clown with the whistle running the circus. You won't want the same thing from your dog that I might you won't hunt the same way I do. Pick what you want work with and create a dog to hunt over happily. Hell some of it is a crap shoot, you roll the dice and take a chance. Learn to read your dog so you know what it is doing and after it has proven itself TRUST THE NOSE it knows. 


And quit trying to start a brawl.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

A_Outdoorsman said:


> Vizslas or EP's ??


If you want a pointing dog I would suggest you look more a long the lines of a V or say a Griff rather than an EP....EP are powerful dogs and maybe a bit much for a 1st time dog owner. 

V's and Griff's are wonderful house dog (not that EP's are not).....


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## Bing (Sep 17, 2004)

It's not the breed, it's the breeding and the training.

The answer to your original question would be Mine! If you need proof, give me a shout, show me one of your favorite hot spot for birds and I'd be glad to let the dogs do all the rest of the talking.


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## dalton (May 12, 2004)

Pudelpointer


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## A_Outdoorsman (Oct 20, 2005)

dogn4birdz said:


> And quit trying to start a brawl.


im not trying to start a brawl im just asking a question to find out


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## coverdog (Dec 7, 2003)

Rook"e" said:


> A trained one. Pointers have a tough time on grouse. I was behind a very experienced dog and his points kept coming up empty. .


Obviously that one wasn't trained very well or had much experiance if he kept coming up with unproductive points. A well trained & experianced pointer will find birds and handle them like a champ. You need to hunt with some other ones and don't base an opinion on one dog from any breed.

Pointers make excellent grouse dog, in fact the are just behind the setters in that department.


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## Lucky Dog (Jul 4, 2004)

coverdog said:


> Pointers make excellent grouse dog, in fact the are just behind the setters in that department.


And where are the setters on the list?


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## coverdog (Dec 7, 2003)

Lucky Dog said:


> And where are the setters on the list?


Why number one of course!!!


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## FieldWalker (Oct 21, 2003)

coverdog said:


> A well trained & experianced pointer will find birds and handle them like a champ.


Pointer, ES, V, WV, GSP, GWP, Griffon, PP, Brittany, Lab, PL, ESS, CS, etc, etc.

So the answer is... An experienced dog with many many grouse contacts is the best dog...

You want a good grouse dog... buy a started or seasoned dog. Probably why that ol' 9 year old veteran seems to handle birds better than that youngster, no matter the breed.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

blah,blah,blah....


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## coverdog (Dec 7, 2003)

Back woods said:


> blah,blah,blah....


Yea what he said.


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## A_Outdoorsman (Oct 20, 2005)

ohh ok blah blah blah, is it hard to teach a bird dog?


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

A_Outdoorsman said:


> ohh ok blah blah blah, is it hard to teach a bird dog?


It is harder to teach me than it is to teach a dog.

I think Bruce deals with that every day of his life, but I am not sure!


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