# grouse dogs



## springpoint (Sep 17, 2009)

I thought i would get some feed back in what you guys look for in a grouse dog. Regardless of breed i was wondering what traits you look for in a grouse dog, things like.

type of gait.
size
temperment
smarts

just wondering what you guys look for


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

springpoint said:


> I thought i would get some feed back in what you guys look for in a grouse dog. Regardless of breed i was wondering what traits you look for in a grouse dog, things like.
> 
> type of gait.
> size
> ...


What kind of women do most guys like?

Skinny
Busty
Blonde
Tall

Get my drift.

Here's what I like and it's been evolving for the past few years. I am by no mean an expert. I like pointing dogs. I like fast moving dogs that range between 75-150 yards but, handle. The dog has to be smart enough to stop at a safe enough distance to point the bird but, not pressure it enough to flush. I like dogs that are under 50lbs, easier to move while training, cheaper to feed and care for. Right now my dog of choice is an Elhew Pointer. She's only a pup but is showing great promise. I like tough dogs that are nice in the house. No soft dogs for me, tough dogs handle pressure better and are easier to train for me.

Good question but, you will be hard pressed to find a consensus. I bet there are 15 different breeds represented on this board and probably 2 or 3 subsets of each breed.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

As far as setters go. I like a dog that busts into the cover as soon as you release it at a young age, has a very good nose, runs over and around obstacles with a smooth gait, hits the objectives where grouse are likely to be found, runs with head up (no ground scenting), uses the wind to its advantage, checks back periodically (not necessarily all the way back but enough for me to know where the dog is at and for me to know it wants to know where I am at), has a propensity to remain injury free; adjusts its range based on the cover being hunted; looks great on point; is clean in the kennel; shows me as each season passes an improvement in handling its game; and when at home people don't even know you own a dog.

And almost forgot; I like biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig field bred setters.


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Cooperation(biddability) would be high on my list.
A family history of solid wild bird bird dogs.
A family history of good health.
Durability.
Heat tolerance.
Good feet.


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## geojasstef (Jan 23, 2005)

kek25 said:


> As far as setters go. I like a dog that busts into the cover as soon as you release it at a young age, has a very good nose, runs over and around obstacles with a smooth gait, hits the objectives where grouse are likely to be found, runs with head up (no ground scenting), uses the wind to its advantage, checks back periodically (not necessarily all the way back but enough for me to know where the dog is at and for me to know it wants to know where I am at), has a propensity to remain injury free; adjusts its range based on the cover being hunted; looks great on point; is clean in the kennel; shows me as each season passes an improvement in handling its game; and when at home people don't even know you own a dog.
> 
> And almost forgot; I like biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig field bred setters.


the only thing I would change is I like smmmaaaaaaaaaaaaalllll field bred setters. (32-37lb females)


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## N M Mechanical (Feb 7, 2008)

Mental stailbity.
Good coat and big round paws and smooth when running effortless. If the breeding is crocect the hunting style and noise will be what you want. And like Keith head up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shotgun Kennel (Feb 9, 2007)

When I come home after missing several easy or relatively easy shots over points, I want my dogs to keep their mouth shut. What happens in the field stays in the field.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

-Confirmation #1, includes size (I like 50lbs give or take a few lbs), feet, coat, ear set (that last one is a joke some of my friends will get), color
-Health Clearences #2
-Pedigree of wild bird dog parents or proven hunt test/field trial performance #3
- bidability and all that goes with it, temperment, level of "hot"

Grouse dogs come in all shapes, sizes, and breeds. Production is a result of exposure and natural ability, not range, and tail set as many will tell you. We are all lucky that for the most part there is a line of dog out there that will fit our life style, training ability, and hunting style.


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## Direwolf (Feb 13, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> -Confirmation #1, includes size (I like 50lbs give or take a few lbs), feet, coat, ear set (that last one is a joke some of my friends will get), color
> -Health Clearences #2
> -Pedigree of wild bird dog parents or proven hunt test/field trial performance #3
> - bidability and all that goes with it, temperment, level of "hot"
> ...



Well said.

I love my ESS in the Grouse woods... works close, works smart, lots of drive and stamina.

Not a huge fan of pointers... I like the surprise of a bird going up and making a quick, great shot but that is a personal preference.


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

springpoint said:


> I thought i would get some feed back in what you guys look for in a grouse dog. Regardless of breed i was wondering what traits you look for in a grouse dog, things like.
> 
> type of gait.
> size
> ...


Springpoint,

Its been my experience that function is not nearly as big a contributor to forming dog preferences as you might think. We get a lot of calls where the number one consideration is markings or color or a combination of the two. Every take a look at anything documenting a number of great field trial champions? The vast majority of them would not even be considered by a significant portion of Setter Fanciers. I cant speak for other breeds and a lot of other breeds dont have the variance of colors and markings as do Setters. 

Size is a good example of a trait where preference is very often not derived from function. Us Setter folks have a wide array of preferences where size a build are concerned but I would suggest those preferences have less to do with function and more to do with simple personal preference. 

Lets use football as an example. There are very specific prototypical body types that are considered very advantageous for different positions (functions). Different types of cover and terrain have the same functional requirements in dogs. Offensive lineman would not do as well in an obstacle course as a defensive back or running back. They are definitely not well suited for long distance running. Even a casual football fan would inherently understand that even a linebacker or full back is not as well suited for an obstacle course or long distance running as a wide receiver or running back. Yet, there is a considerable portion of those who grouse hunt with setters that prefer a big dog. (a linebacker or even lineman) There are some big dogs with freakish athleticism that are exceptions to this general rule just as there are rare athletes like Lebron James that are physical gifted far beyond the norm. However, for the most part, large Setters are not as adept at navigating their way through the grouse woods. On the other hand, little dogs are also the preference of many. Small dogs work pretty well in the woods if they are really tough. They are basically point guards and that fits pretty well. Gait is of particular importance to stamina with smaller dogs. Merimac has a little setter that can really roll. She is very nicely gaited. Most have a compact gait that does not promote stamina. 32-35 lbs female setters are also definitely not going to hold up in CRP or other heavy cover as well as a 48-52 lbs male. This is something people tend to learn after they have owned a few dogs but it is not a common consideration of less serious hunters.

This will probably not sit well with some folks. I firmly believe everyone should hunt with whatever floats their boat. However, it appeared to me you were asking a question looking to gain insight to what is most functional. My observation (strictly Setters) is that 38-43 lbs females and 45-50 lbs males are best suited for a combination of woods and open country hunting. I would adjust downward a couple pounds if the application was heavily weight toward the grouse woods and up a couple pounds if the application was primarily open country.

SRB


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## birdhuntingbtch (Mar 30, 2009)

Shotgun Kennel said:


> When I come home after missing several easy or relatively easy shots over points, I want my dogs to keep their mouth shut. What happens in the field stays in the field.


You should have thought about that before you started hunting with women. We talk about all kinds of things!


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## Paco (Dec 18, 2006)

I've used the football players analogy quite a bit.So I'll go along with what Scott Berg was getting at.I prefer a smaller running back,oh say Walter Payton,combined with a wide reciever build,like maybe Jerry Rice.

I'm a lab guy,I like field bred males,under 70LBs. 55- 65 being just right.From hunters,or proven performance pedigree,prefer both. (I've got an in on that part.)

Intelligence and conformation/structure are high on my list.

Health clearances

Out of proven producers is nice.
I have read the writings of a line breeder who learned much from Mr.Wehle.This guy flat out knows about putting run in labs,and endurance for upland work.. That ear type may not be a joke,certain ears get you less chance of injury,and the high tail carriage is very important as to the high head when hunting seeking air scent,and even smooth run and endurance.The pointer folks know that... A modified cat foot is important to endurance and less prone to injury,and on and on.
Great structure gives more likelyhood that the dog will perform with less wear and tear over the long haul,IMO.


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## anon21511 (Jan 13, 2006)

Paco-What does modified cat foot mean? I've never heard that term and am always interested in learning new things. Thanks.


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## Paco (Dec 18, 2006)

Birdhuntr1 said:


> Paco-What does modified cat foot mean? I've never heard that term and am always interested in learning new things. Thanks.


Cat foot=round and compact with well arched toes and thick pads...

Lengthy PM sent with detailed explanation.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Paco said:


> Cat foot=round and compact with well arched toes and thick pads...
> 
> Lengthy PM sent with detailed explanation.


Yep, as opposed to flat-footed with fallen arches--I've hear the comment that the dog should look almost like they're on their tip-toes.

I agree with just about everything that's been said, but I prefer a dog that has the intelligence to recognize and hit cover without me saying or doing very little to direct him. I also like a fast, medium range (within 200 yards) dog that also covers the ground, but not at the expense of biddability--the dog should check-in with little hacking. Bird handling-wise, I like them a little more cautious than most: if my dog is going to run relatively big, I don't want them bumping birds--especially out of my sight. This might produce more UP's, but I think it's a small price to pay.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

> I agree with just about everything that's been said, but I prefer a dog that has the intelligence to recognize and hit cover without me saying or doing very little to direct him.


Mike,

I think about this from a flushing dog standpoint quite a bit, I have one dog that is an excellent quartering dog, and another dog that tends "hunt the cover" - the question becomes is this a born trait or a learned trait through exposure?

Again in this situation range plays very little role in the dogs application, hence my comments that there is a line of grouse dog to suit everyones needs and we should be happy we have those options.

(the answer probaly lies someplace inbetween)


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> the question becomes is this a born trait or a learned trait through exposure?


The trait is born in them. Exposure and training nurture it.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Back woods said:


> The trait is born in them. Exposure and training nurture it.



Bruce,

Can you breed for it? Or so to speak do you consider it in breeding? Does it show up in some litters more consistently through out the pups then other litters?


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## Milo (Aug 19, 2009)

It's all about breeding. I look for a dog that has a lot of Point, that goes hard and loves what their doing.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Steelheadfred said:


> Bruce,
> 
> Can you breed for it? Or so to speak do you consider it in breeding? Does it show up in some litters more consistently through out the pups then other litters?


You must breed for it. Great application is what it's all about. 

A moderate nose dog with great application will always be into birds. Pointer or flusher. Some have it some don't. I will not breed them if they don't have a natural pattern (or what I feel is a moderate nose). Even with a natural pattern they still need work. Why make it harder on yourself.


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## ckendall (Sep 1, 2000)

I hunt a pretty large 5 yr. old female lab - 65 lbs at fighting weight - for everything - ducks, pheasants, woodcock, grouse.

She has a lot of desire (will hunt bloodied up) - is pretty bidable (I can call her off a bad/out of range flush or a miss with "no bird"). She is pretty athletic - and hunted hard 6 hours a day this year in South Dakota for pheasants - plus she is a rock solid duck dog, that handles to whistle and hand signals. Overall - very satisfied. 

For pheasant - I wouldn't trade her. She really produces there, especially on the wild running birds (of course you have to keep up!) - and she has an almost flawless record on wounded birds (we did lose a wounded runner this year, because she got tangled in her thorn vest). 

Having said all that, I have been really thinking about adding a smaller, close hunting pointer to my team - because, even when my lab is hunting pretty close, when she hits the scent of a grouse, she really accelerates - and this results in flushes that are usually too far out or too surprising for me to convert on (that part could be my problem). Contrary to what someone else said about grouse scent, it seems to drive her out of her mind when she hits it, and I am frankly getting a little tired of fighting with her about keeping her head . . . 

I have been seriously looking at a Braque de Bourbonnais (french pointer) - which are a little smaller than the English Pointers, can be found with more coat (reminiscent of a GSP), and they lock up at first scent. Here is a link to a Michigan breeder's explanation of why he likes the breed: http://www.aspenridgekennels.com/why.html . 

I personally like a biddable dog, and these are reported to be this way. I also like the low-maintenance coat - which is something I really appreciate with my lab. 

We got a little place just a couple of years ago up in Gladwin right in the middle of a bunch of high density grouse hunting land - and it seems like I am doing more Woodcock and Grouse hunting as time goes by . . . so, we'll see. 

I don't really think I have enough personal time right now to do the training right, like I had when I got my lab. So, if I do go this direction it will be in a few years most likely. Anyway, its not a breed that is often discussed, and it might be an interesting option for someone keen on a grouse dog now.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

ckendall said:


> I hunt a pretty large 5 yr. old female lab - 65 lbs at fighting weight - for everything - ducks, pheasants, woodcock, grouse.
> 
> She has a lot of desire (will hunt bloodied up) - is pretty bidable (I can call her off a bad/out of range flush or a miss with "no bird"). She is pretty athletic - and hunted hard 6 hours a day this year in South Dakota for pheasants - plus she is a rock solid duck dog, that handles to whistle and hand signals. Overall - very satisfied.
> 
> ...


40-55lbs is not smaller than the English pointer.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

ckendall said:


> I hunt a pretty large 5 yr. old female lab - 65 lbs at fighting weight - for everything - ducks, pheasants, woodcock, grouse.
> 
> She has a lot of desire (will hunt bloodied up) - is pretty bidable (I can call her off a bad/out of range flush or a miss with "no bird"). She is pretty athletic - and hunted hard 6 hours a day this year in South Dakota for pheasants - plus she is a rock solid duck dog, that handles to whistle and hand signals. Overall - very satisfied.
> 
> ...



They have a nice website and good marketing. I would ask to hunt behind those dogs before I plopped down the cash to get one. There are plenty of other nice breeds out there with more breeders to choose from. I am always leary of minor breed dogs. Not saying that there aren't good dogs in those minor breeds.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

ckendall said:


> I hunt a pretty large 5 yr. old female lab - 65 lbs at fighting weight - for everything - ducks, pheasants, woodcock, grouse.
> 
> She has a lot of desire (will hunt bloodied up) - is pretty bidable (I can call her off a bad/out of range flush or a miss with "no bird"). She is pretty athletic - and hunted hard 6 hours a day this year in South Dakota for pheasants - plus she is a rock solid duck dog, that handles to whistle and hand signals. Overall - very satisfied.
> 
> ...


 
When you labs gets hot on a grouse can you sit her with a whistle blast?

Also, if I were to get a pointing dog I would look for one that would cover more ground then my labs, I would not want an in-gun range pointer, just my preference though...

If you have a place up by Gladwin check out some of the grouse trials at the famed Gladwin Field Trial grounds, you would be smart to attend some of the hunting dog trials they host bi-annually.


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## ckendall (Sep 1, 2000)

Steelheadfred said:


> When you labs gets hot on a grouse can you sit her with a whistle blast?
> 
> Also, if I were to get a pointing dog I would look for one that would cover more ground then my labs, I would not want an in-gun range pointer, just my preference though...
> 
> If you have a place up by Gladwin check out some of the grouse trials at the famed Gladwin Field Trial grounds, you would be smart to attend some of the hunting dog trials they host bi-annually.


No - I can't get her to sit on a whistle blast when she gets hot. No problem on a retrieve . . . I'll own up to it: this my fault. I have given her leeway on the upland hunting, mostly with Pheasants, where this is not an issue. I could probably do a reset on this with some work - and maybe I should.

As far as working close - that's probably a preference I developed hunting my lab all the time. I think I would have to go through a re-education process myself if I got a pointer, I suppose.

I have thought about checking trials out. We have a deer camp in Meredith, and I drive by that area all the time.


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## ckendall (Sep 1, 2000)

Back woods said:


> 40-55lbs is not smaller than the English pointer.


I'll take your word for it. I never owned either breed. I was just going by breed standards: 

*English Pointer:* 

Dogs: 55-75 pounds 
Bitches: 44-65 pounds

*Braque/French Pointer:*

Dogs: 39 1/2 - 55 lbs
Bitches: 35 - 48 1/2 lbs


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

ckendall said:


> I'll take your word for it. I never owned either breed. I was just going by breed standards:
> 
> *English Pointer:*
> 
> ...


Most of the English Pointers I have seen average 40-75 lbs, with the 60lbs - to 75lbs realm usually being show dogs. I'm sure some exceptions apply.

The bitch that produced one of my Pointers was just 37lbs. My pup is 48lbs now at one year.


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

ckendall said:


> No - I can't get her to sit on a whistle blast when she gets hot. No problem on a retrieve . . . I'll own up to it: this my fault. I have given her leeway on the upland hunting, mostly with Pheasants, where this is not an issue. I could probably do a reset on this with some work - and maybe I should.
> 
> 
> .


Sounds like you can read her pretty well and if you could stop her on a whistle blast, move into a better lane or more open walking then release or you might find your opportunities go up. 

Sounds like she is a really nice dog though.


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## ckendall (Sep 1, 2000)

Steelheadfred said:


> Sounds like you can read her pretty well and if you could stop her on a whistle blast, move into a better lane or more open walking then release or you might find your opportunities go up.
> 
> Sounds like she is a really nice dog though.


She is a good girl loves to hunt. I am going to take your advice and get her tightened up on this. I just checked out your photo gallery - and I can see very clearly that you have the "Lab + Grouse = Photo Opportunity" formula totally figured out. 

. . . and I could really use those few seconds to get into position. 

I take it you don't have any issues with the whistle stirring things up? I mean, its not like the birds don't know we are in the vicinity anyway, I guess.


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## SwampSitter (Oct 11, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Loaded question and it might be better answered by someone who owns pointers but gets to hunt behind some good grouse flushing dogs each season.
> 
> I am going to assume the following.
> 
> ...


thanks I value all of your input, great summary for sure. I'm newer to all of this. Bidability seems to be a critical factor. Flushing dogs that don't sit to whistle blast make things very difficult. I find my dog obeying my whistle commands quite well but lately I feel I need to do it too much and don't want to "overhandle". My pup is 8 months old and I'm hoping it will slow down a bit over time thus resulting in less commands or working a little closer/slower when neccessary (or get a better feel for what I want it to do at the moment). Is this a reasonable expectation -how much is too much and is this an experience issue more than a training issue? 
sorry for all of the questions, but there is so much good feedback


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## SwampSitter (Oct 11, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> Loaded question and it might be better answered by someone who owns pointers but gets to hunt behind some good grouse flushing dogs each season.
> 
> I am going to assume the following.
> 
> ...


thanks I value all of your input, great summary for sure. I'm newer to all of this. Bidability seems to be a critical factor. Flushing dogs that don't sit to whistle blast make things very difficult. I find my dog obeying my whistle commands quite well but lately I feel I need to do it too much and don't want to "overhandle". My pup is 8 months old and I'm hoping it will slow down a bit over time thus resulting in less commands or working a little closer/slower when neccessary (or get a better feel for what I want it to do at the moment). Is this a reasonable expectation -how much is too much and is this an experience issue more than a training issue? 
sorry for all of the questions, but there is so much good feedback


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## Scott Berg (Feb 24, 2008)

Steelheadfred said:


> There is no "truly best style" when it comes to hunting dogs IMO...there is a style that suits each hunter best.


Fred,

I thought your previous post where you summed up what you were looking for was very good. The type of dog you described was very effective.

I agree with half of this post. I have no problem with the concept of everyone should hunt with whatever they like. However, that these various styles are equally effective. The pattern I see on alot of dogs is definitely the not the most effective pattern. Alot of people want their dogs checking back constantly which is a complete waste of time. The best "style" where this is concerned is to lay out in the pocket and adjust to the handlers direction and the changes in terrain.

This has been an interesting thread. I am going south in an hour to work dogs so I won't be able to keep up with it. I will leave you with this ... For the folks that like a dog to work slow, what is the logic? Is the theory that fast moving dogs will miss birds, bump birds, etc. What is gained by covering far less ground? I am not in the least bit trying to be confrontational. This is a very productive discussion in my opinion where developing the most effective dog is concerned.

SRB


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Scott Berg said:


> Fred,
> 
> I thought your previous post where you summed up what you were looking for was very good. The type of dog you described was very effective.
> 
> ...


 
I will try not to make myself look like an idiot in my responce and I will try and explain why guys will flushing dogs/close working pointing dogs can keep pace with guys with bigger running dogs covering more ground, there is no quantitative prof that in Great Lakes Ruffed Grouse bird hunting (not trials) bigger running dogs are more effective then slower working dogs (that i know of) over the course of an entire season. The closest you could get would be the LODGH surveys, or the RGS National Hunt each season. Using those two surveys you will find that flush rates are about = between the close working dog camp and the bigger running dog camp when you compare, MN, WI, MI numbers.

The"Grouse Dog" is only part of the puzzle in grouse hunting and this is another reason why closer working dogs produce just as many birds as bigger running dogs (at least in the state of Michigan). The guy driving the truck and figuring out the variables of where the birds will be on any given day is a bigger part of the puzzle then the dog, cause you can have the greatest dog in the world but if you can't park the truck in a spot with birds in it, that dog can't produce.

The guy with the closer working dog and a good base of knowledge to recognize and hunt cover that his dog is most effective in, will have his dog in productive cover 100% of the time and has his feet moving non stop. He wastes little time outside of the sweet spots, he does not stop to call or turn his dog, his dog does not spend much time outside of the best parts of the cover and his dog rarely flushes birds out of gun range be it the nature of the bird or the dogs fault.

So what is gained by covering far less ground is concentrated efforts in the best cover 100% of the time by both dog and gunner. You mentioned the waste of time.

That said horses for courses, some spots are better suited for big going dogs, some for closer working dogs, certain times of the year are better suited for a big going dog and certain times of the season favor a closer working dog.

I still maintain there is no truly best style of dog "for everyone" out there, we are lucky to have a wide variety of well bred dogs to pick the "style" that works best for us as individuals. Of course I am speaking of great lakes ruffed grouse hunting, I am not speaking of trials.

FWIW - if and when I were to ever get a pointing breed I would desire a bigger going dog, I enjoy each season hunting over a couple, but I also enjoy hunting over a GWP and a Dual type setter each season too...


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## midwestfisherman (Apr 19, 2001)

The first thing that I want in a grouse dog is intelligence. 

Size of the dog does not matter. My females run 35 - 40lbs. Males run 45 - 50lbs. With the exception of my Gordon setter which is ~60lbs.

Bird finding ability (nose), stamina, bid-ability, and heat tolerance are all in the mix as well.

Beyond that, be it setter, pointer, GSP, brittany. etc. I'm good with it. YMMV


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

Dave Medema said:


> I do wonder why some dogs always seem to find more birds than others.


 Me too and I cannot put my finger on it.
I ran all three of my dogs together the other night, one dog pointed four grouse the other dogs zero.  it baffles me.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

"The guy driving the truck and figuring out the variables of where the birds will be on any given day is a bigger part of the puzzle then the dog, cause you can have the greatest dog in the world but if you can't park the truck in a spot with birds in it, that dog can't produce."

Yeah but what if the guy knows how to find the birds and has good dogs that cover more ground than another hunter with the same abilities and who's equally good dogs cover less ground? 

Also good grouse pointing dogs adapt their range to the cover at hand and the game present. I have dogs that stretch the limits of my ability to hear their beeper. They will dig deep when needed to find birds IF that's what's needed. But, the same dogs when put into a 5 acre overgrown pasture of hazel and dogwood full of birds will because of "sense" work from bird to bird and not just blow through it when I turn them loose. 

That neat thing is, the same dog is just as at home on the ND prairie hitting Buffaloberry clump objectives that are several hundred yards apart. As skirting and alder swamp edge in MN grouse country. 

Also, big running doesn't have to mean fast running. I like dogs that start at a ground eating lope and after three or four hours are still rocking along at the same ground eating lope. 

I dislike dogs that hunt at warp speed for 2 hours and then basically crash. They kind of remind me of a wind up toy. I've had a few of this type and they go through the woods like the Tazmania Devil. Exciting as hell to watch running and pointing but even though I tried to get them to learn to pace by running them for long periods from the time they were puppies they never would. They were also the dogs I took to the Vet most often for scratched Cornia's, sticks run through their mouth and out the backs of their necks, and other injuries that I attribute to their senseless rate of travel when they hunted.

Anyways, just another perspective.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

2ESRGR8 said:


> Me too and I cannot put my finger on it.
> I ran all three of my dogs together the other night, one dog pointed four grouse the other dogs zero.  it baffles me.


I know, it's odd. I'm sure everyone has seen one dog run right past a bird while the next dog hits point like it's been struck by lightning. The next day it's the opposite.

There are a slew of variables with this stuff, but one thing that I've noticed with both mine and other's dogs, on average, if you put an experienced dog down with a semi-experienced, but still competent dog (especially if the experienced dog likes to run a little) the semi-experienced dog often does poorly with regard to the bird count. If that same semi-experienced dog is run solo, the bird count for that dog can go up substantially, making the dog seem like an old pro. I think it's just a matter of which dog gets to the birds most effeciently and how many are left-over for the other dog(s).


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## Steelheadfred (May 4, 2004)

Jay Johnson said:


> "The guy driving the truck and figuring out the variables of where the birds will be on any given day is a bigger part of the puzzle then the dog, cause you can have the greatest dog in the world but if you can't park the truck in a spot with birds in it, that dog can't produce."
> 
> Yeah but what if the guy knows how to find the birds and has good dogs that cover more ground than another hunter with the same abilities and who's equally good dogs cover less ground?


Jay,

You have been at this a long time and have far more knowledge then I do. In theory or on paper your senario should work, but in my experience over the course of a season under a host of variables it seems to me that in the end they all = out, bird finders are bird finders reguardless of the style and range.

With that said, I do agree though that the top 10% of pointing dogs running at range should find mroe birds then the closer working breeds. But the few "surveys" don't prove this out nor does most of my personal experience outside of hunting with Dan Ross and Bruce Mindard, those dogs are the exception as I assume yours are not the rule.


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## Jay Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

Fred:

Yes there are a lot of variables when you are trying to quantify such things. 

I appreciate the way you use your flushing dogs effectively on grouse. I grew up with and hunted grouse over labs and springers. There were many times I was happy I had one in the chamber and four in the magazine as our lab or springer rousted grouse out of a dogwood tangle. Those were good days and I have many fond memories. 

This is a debate that has gone on for as long as I remember and I see no end in sight. I share my experience not to sway thinking just to provide additional context to the conversation.

Jay


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

No offense to Fritz, Jay, and Scott but, you guys also need to remember that your dogs are the cream of the crop. So, yeah bigger running pointing dogs may find more birds but, most of us guys have average dogs. My dogs often find birds at 150 yards but, by the time I get to them they are gone. Most of my kills are when the dog points a grouse within 100 yards. It's not always about number of finds it's about the number of finds that produce a bird for the gun.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Just young and full of competition.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

Bigsp,
My take is they are competitive just like people are. They don't want to be out run. They don't want another dog out pointing them. 

Jay, 
I do think Jerry would agree. Almost Bred my female Addie to Chief(frozen). I thought it would be better to do a natural breeding for the first one. 


Bruce, 
Is that Fleetwood?

I have been lucky enough to see Rudy run a few times. Once in MI once in MN, and once in WI. All three times she showed well. I believe she placed two of the three time I saw her. I have been watching a really fancy pup from her that Ben Mergens runs. I was planning on watching Mikes L's Dog in WI but I had to work.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

QuailTrap said:


> What a great description of a championship hour. That is why we do it. I've been in that "euphoric frame of mind" a few times. The last time Rudy gave it to me.


I was there, and even though I wasn't directly involved, I felt it too. Dave, you did a fantastic job with Rudy that day: I especially liked the fireman's carry after each bird:lol: and the 2-3 minute hug in the end.



Merimac said:


> Bigsp,
> ...I was planning on watching Mikes L's Dog in WI but I had to work.


You blew it Ben, since I took possession of him after the Fall trial season, he's gone from a lean-mean bird machine to a drunken couch potato:








We're seeing some good things in Rock, although he's a youngster and he's still puting the pieces of all this together. On the bright side, he's been stone cold broke on the last +10 grouse/woodcock that he's had and is starting to really hunt in a in a laser-like way reminiscent of mom.


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## springpoint (Sep 17, 2009)

wow thanks guys i love the replies i'm learning a lot, I'm a very competitive person and trials seem to really be peaking my interest hearing backwoods talk about them it sounds really exciting.

thanks again for all the info guys.


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

That photo tells a lot. Do you both have bark collars on?:lol:


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## springpoint (Sep 17, 2009)

well i guess this is where me being a newbie comes in, it seems like you guys are having great success with english pointers as grouse dogs, now i have no experience with english pointers but everything i had heard up to this point in my research seemed to lead me to the impression that english pointers really weren't the best grouse dog for the average grouse hunter but the more i read here it seems the exact opposite.

So i was wondering if you guys could tell me a little more about english pointers as grouse dogs are they a good dog for a inexperienced hunter.


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## WestCoastHunter (Apr 3, 2008)

springpoint said:


> well i guess this is where me being a newbie comes in, it seems like you guys are having great success with english pointers as grouse dogs, now i have no experience with english pointers but everything i had heard up to this point in my research seemed to lead me to the impression that english pointers really weren't the best grouse dog for the average grouse hunter but the more i read here it seems the exact opposite.
> 
> So i was wondering if you guys could tell me a little more about english pointers as grouse dogs are they a good dog for a inexperienced hunter.


Their range can take some getting used to, especially if you're foolish enough to "just let them run." But as far as house dogs go they're great and if you're looking for a grouse dog I'd argue you can't go wrong with one. Just remember that they are a track athlete.

If you pay attention to people on this board and elsewhere you'll notice that a number of setter breeders, GSP breeders in some cases, and others are striving for traits that the Pointer has, particularly the trial guys. That should tell you something. I'm sure people will argue with that, but I haven't ever seen anyone say, "Gee, I wish Pointers were more heat tolerant, could have a nose, could be as spectacular on point, and have more run like dog breed X." You also don't hear of problems with the breed having lost the ability to hunt because of the pet trade and show dog world.

My opinion, you could do a lot worse than take on a Pointer as your first grouse dog. I did it, and I don't regret it, and mine are just rescues...now if my shooting could match what they can do I might actually eat well.


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## BIGSP (Sep 16, 2004)

WestCoastHunter said:


> Their range can take some getting used to, especially if you're foolish enough to "just let them run." But as far as house dogs go they're great and if you're looking for a grouse dog I'd argue you can't go wrong with one. Just remember that they are a track athlete.
> 
> If you pay attention to people on this board and elsewhere you'll notice that a number of setter breeders, GSP breeders in some cases, and others are striving for traits that the Pointer has, particularly the trial guys. That should tell you something. I'm sure people will argue with that, but I haven't ever seen anyone say, "Gee, I wish Pointers were more heat tolerant, could have a nose, could be as spectacular on point, and have more run like dog breed X." You also don't hear of problems with the breed having lost the ability to hunt because of the pet trade and show dog world.
> 
> My opinion, you could do a lot worse than take on a Pointer as your first grouse dog. I did it, and I don't regret it, and mine are just rescues...now if my shooting could match what they can do I might actually eat well.


Well said,

I would add there there are as many "flavors" of pointers as Baskin Robbins has. You can find some really nice pointers out there that would be a great first dog. I would recommend finding one who's parents aren't known for big range.

I started out with shorthairs and love them but, after having my pointer for only 10 months I'd have to say that I would be hard pressed to go back to shorthairs. I like the way they hit cover, stand their birds and are fairly easy to train. 

One other misnomer is that they aren't great house dogs. Again, I totally disagree, my pup is a pup but, she is a lover and good around my kids and other dogs.


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## kek25 (Jul 9, 2005)

Be honest about the manner in which you prefer to hunt and choose a breed from there.

If you choose the breed to match your hunting style instead of molding your hunting style to match the breed you should be o.k. This assumes that you've hunted with the various breeds and have formed an opinion of the style of hunting you prefer.


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## FindTheBird (Dec 18, 2004)

Merimac said:


> That photo tells a lot. Do you both have bark collars on?:lol:


Dogtra invisible fence collars actually (to keep us both out of the kitchen).


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

kek25 said:


> Be honest about the manner in which you prefer to hunt and choose a breed from there.
> 
> If you choose the breed to match your hunting style instead of molding your hunting style to match the breed you should be o.k. This assumes that you've hunted with the various breeds and have formed an opinion of the style of hunting you prefer.


 Best advice yet.


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## winshoot (Sep 6, 2006)

Never trust a dog to watch your meat.


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## Back woods (Jul 30, 2003)

Merimac said:


> Bruce,
> Is that Fleetwood?


Yes, I think this year he'll be knocking on the door.


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## springpoint (Sep 17, 2009)

so nobody has any opinion on whether a pointer would be a good 1st grouse dog and family dog


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## Merimac (Jan 17, 2006)

springpoint said:


> so nobody has any opinion on whether a pointer would be a good 1st grouse dog and family dog


Yep, Kek25 said it well. All dogs are different. All hunters are different. You should hunt with some dogs and figure out what you want. Are you going to consider field trialing. If so are you willing to train or pay for a Trainer for at least 4 months a year. Are you getting a puppy or a adult? Are you only hunting Grouse? 




Bruce,
He's gonna have to beat 27 lbs of Tri color lightning! :lol: 

Ben


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## 2ESRGR8 (Dec 16, 2004)

springpoint said:


> so nobody has any opinion on whether a pointer would be a good 1st grouse dog and family dog


 Based on your location a good first birddog and family pet I would suggest an American Brittany.


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## springpoint (Sep 17, 2009)

thanks for the replies guys


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